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are we alone is this evidence of extraterrestrial\h
activity or something that's maybe already been\h\h

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here or was here forever and before us\h
which opens the question of do we really\h\h

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own this planet the other answer is just as\h
interesting it might be depressing the other\h\h

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answer is we are alone at least here and\h
nothing has been here that's interesting\h\h

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but it still begs the question what is it\h
that everybody's seeing right so you still\h\h

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have to explain it so no matter what the\h
answer is here the answer is interesting

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thank you

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Dr Gary Nolan is the director nhlbi\h
proteomics Center and professor of\h\h

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microbiology and Immunology at the\h
Stanford University School of Medicine\h\h

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Dr Nolan received his PhD from the Department of\h
genetics at Stanford at the herzenberg laboratory\h\h

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and his BS in genetics from Cornell\h
University he was a post-doctorate\h\h

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fellow in the laboratory of Dr David\h
Baltimore MIT in Rockefeller University\h\h

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he is the author of over 120 peer-reviewed\h
papers and holds numerous issued patents and was\h\h

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recently honored as one of the top 25 inventors at\h
Stanford University so Gary thanks for joining us\h\h

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today we've met before a couple times once at a\h
scientific Coalition for UAP studies conference\h\h

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um actually I think that was only time but\h
it's it's a pleasure to to see you again yeah\h\h

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well thanks to you guys for setting this up and\h
inviting me it's gonna be fun discussion awesome\h\h

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um so let's kind of cut to the chase here you\h
know you're a very well respected scientist\h\h

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you've been involved in the UAP topic and have\h
been vocal about it in a way other people haven't\h\h

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um just lately we're now you know just to kind\h
of set the stage where we're about a month and\h\h

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a half away or we've been waiting for a month and\h
a half for this latest UAP report to come out uh\h\h

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the National Defense authorization Act of 2023 uh\h
there's a a final version of that that is ready\h\h

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to be voted on which has about 33 Pages worth\h
of UAP related uh whistleblower protections and\h\h

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um accountability office you know research\h
projects and going all the way back to 1945\h\h

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uh 1947 was on the original version now we're\h
looking at 1945 uh to go back for that analysis\h\h

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um at the same time we also have major media\h
Publications such as New York Times and wash\h\h

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uh the Wall Street Journal um communicating\h
and expressing that you know the UAP bubble\h\h

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has popped and that this is all nonsense uh more\h
or less and that that was really communicated\h\h

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um on the day that the original UAP report was\h
due to come out uh and all those are all the all\h\h

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that reporting seemed to kind of poo the idea\h
that this reported anything substantial to say\h\h

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um now those articles came and went and now it's a\h
month and a half later and the report's still not\h\h

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finished uh what do you make of those articles and\h
and kind of the general communication that we're\h\h

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seeing from the mainstream media on this topic\h
well it certainly leaves the impression that the\h\h

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Articles were planned but what excites me about\h
that so-called planning is it shows you frankly\h\h

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how disorganized they are because if they didn't\h
even understand that the ndaa uh or the sorry the\h\h

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UAP report was going to come out in a couple of\h
months it meant that they basically mistimed it\h\h

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and so that to me tells me that whoever the\h
opposition is is not to be feared as much as\h\h

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uh something that they should be who do you think\h
that opposition is do you think there is just a\h\h

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general uh skeptical crowd inside that thinks\h
that this is a waste of resources is that kind\h\h

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of the type of person that you think this would\h
be or the group well I mean without getting all\h\h

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conspiracy conspiracy minded you know there are of\h
course those people who are on the inside who as\h\h

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you say they don't want to see wasted resources\h
but also you know this is an existential change\h\h

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in how it is that Humanity sees itself and\h
so whether or not you're religious or whether\h\h

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you're a religious uh changing where you are in\h
the hierarchy of things is an important change\h\h

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in your psychological structure so there's always\h
going to be a pushback on that mentally but also\h\h

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you know also there's the crowd effect that\h
happens individually as I find for instance in The\h\h

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Sciences individually I can talk to a scientist\h
and they're all open on the idea and they want to\h\h

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know everything about it but in the crowd they\h
become another person and so I think there's a\h\h

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little bit of that kind of a psychology going on\h
and because people often need outside validation\h\h

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not just on these ideas but for themselves and\h
so if the more we start to see other individuals\h\h

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outside in the community at large who are saying\h
this is okay to talk about the further than\h\h

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those who are on the inside will feel comfortable\h
coming out and doing things if that makes sense it\h\h

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does yeah that's interesting and that's pretty\h
much what I've seen as we've been interviewing\h\h

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different Pilots the more that they are sharing\h
their experiences the more they're learning from\h\h

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other pilots on the air crew that they're sharing\h
the same experiences and they just weren't talking\h\h

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about it before so yeah I think that's that's very\h
sweet Point um so you know I'm a pilot or I was um\h\h

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I'm not I don't have the the educational pedigree\h
that you have um when we approach this topic as a\h\h

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as Pilots for us it's very pragmatic we're looking\h
at this uh from an aviation safety perspective uh\h\h

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and that's really how I got involved because we\h
were almost hitting these things and we didn't\h\h

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know what to do and we're canceling training\h
um how did you get involved in this topic\h\h

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well a couple of different angles I mean the\h
first one was uh working on that mummy that\h\h

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people thought was an alien and I looked at that\h
and I was intrigued and I said well okay you say\h\h

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that but okay who's doing the science to prove it\h
well I can do the science and so that was when I\h\h

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reached out to the people who had it and uh got\h
access to some material from it we did the studies\h\h

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we published it we showed it wasn't and that's\h
fine and I did something very similar it wasn't\h\h

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an alien it was it was an unfortunate probably uh\h
pre-term birth uh with a lot of genetic anomalies\h\h

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um and you know we of course brought in\h
the world's experts in all of the various\h\h

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sub-disciplines that were required to analyze\h
the thing everything from South American genetics\h\h

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The Specialist happened to be at Stanford the\h
specialist in uh in um genetic bone disorders Etc\h\h

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um because that's what you need to do with\h
these kinds of things if you can do it and\h\h

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is easy enough you need to bring in then make a\h
final statement about some of this stuff and so\h\h

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for me and this is another this is the honest way\h
that I was going about it for me the the the doing\h\h

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of that study uh the undertaking of that study\h
was because I really wanted to send a flag up as\h\h

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I we were talking earlier a smoke signal to the\h
scientific community at large to see what other\h\h

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scientists are able or willing to come forward\h
now that there's somebody willing to be out\h\h

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there talking about this kind of thing openly um\h
because and part of what drove me were discussions\h\h

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I'd had with other scientists earlier on who told\h
me that I was going to ruin my career by getting\h\h

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involved in this at any level and to be honest\h
that just got me angry and in fact if anything\h\h

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it got me more determined that I should be doing\h
something about this because they were telling me\h\h

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that something was clearly logical and well within\h
the realm of scientific analysis and study they\h\h

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were telling me not to do it which to me just said\h
they're more religious and cult-like than most I\h\h

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think scientists should be I mean to me if you're\h
if you've agreed to be a scientist you've agreed\h\h

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to a certain set of rules about how you explore\h
reality or nature and if you're breaking some of\h\h

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the basic tenets of those rules then I I you need\h
to be disciplined and so for me it was part of\h\h

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this impetus was this is something that I should\h
be doing or because I should I don't like people\h\h

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telling me I shouldn't be doing doing something\h
when I know it's right and so that brought me to\h\h

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the attention of a number of other scientists who\h
actually were there who had been doing this kind\h\h

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of work for decades as it turns out uh and um you\h
know I could I I felt the community growing and it\h\h

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really but everything was going along I think in\h
a more Subterranean manner until eventually uh Lou\h\h

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Elizondo reached out to me uh and uh with others\h
said this is what we're about to release and I\h\h

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remember basically the day I was in Washington DC\h
uh we met in Crystal City overlooking the Pentagon\h\h

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at a bar and he showed me the video of what was\h
supposed to be coming out the Gimbal and the go\h\h

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fast videos uh and that to me was an energizing\h
moment realizing that okay here it is this is it\h\h

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uh this is you know whether that is sufficient\h
proof or not the fact that we knew that it was\h\h

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going to be coming out of the New York Times I was\h
ready for uh what was coming and excited about it\h\h

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I realized it wasn't going to be the end of\h
the story that was just the beginning of it\h\h

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but for me it was the first thing I sent\h
around to the people the scientist friends\h\h

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of mine who'd said you know this is something\h
you shouldn't be doing I said look at this and\h\h

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what's exciting now now fast forward what four\h
or five years later uh now there's so many of\h\h

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my scientific friends who the first thing they\h
want to ask once we're dispensed with the usual\h\h

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pleasantries about whatever science is they're\h
doing Gary what's going on about the UFO stuff\h\h

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I really want to hear well do they want it here\h
they want to do something about it so yes so\h\h

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um Sean Parker who funds uh my lab um the Napster\h
Facebook Sean Parker funds my lab through um\h\h

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through his immunotherapy of Cancer Foundation uh\h
he actually put down a fair amount of money at one\h\h

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of the conferences that he ran for me to have a uh\h
basically the an evening uh of talking about this\h\h

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matter flew in Lu Elizondo we brought in Chris\h
Mellon via Zoom uh Lady Gaga was at the back uh\h\h

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um uh hidden uh and um and I know he\h
put a fair amount of money into this now\h\h

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was there sufficient data most these were my\h
scientific colleagues and many of them came up\h\h

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to me afterwards and said well Gary you didn't\h
really show any data and I said well the reason\h\h

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there's no data is because nobody else is helping\h
and so several of them said how can I help so\h\h

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that's what changes you know it's it's you always\h
do need somebody who has whatever the reputation\h\h

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is that is necessary they can say okay well if and\h
I've heard this many times I wouldn't believe it\h\h

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if it weren't for you and so you know people say\h
oh you're you're wonderful you're whatever it's\h\h

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like no I'm I'm not wonderful I'm just telling you\h
that if you if you've agreed to the set of rules\h\h

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like I was talking about before then and you're\h
not going to follow them then I'm not going to\h\h

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think I'm not going to listen to your criticisms\h
so it's a that's a very interesting philosophy I\h\h

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would say or similar philosophy to some of the the\h
airline captains we've spoken to right they have\h\h

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accepted the responsibility for all those lives\h
on the aircraft before they even stepped on the\h\h

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aircraft they viewed the weather they've looked\h
at you know solar activity for solar flares I\h\h

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mean everything you can imagine health of the uh\h
the the passengers right if someone is you know\h\h

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has a potential heart attack on the plane be a\h
problem and so it's very simple you've agreed that\h\h

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you've accepted that responsibility not just the\h
pilots of cells but the the carriers themselves\h\h

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the companies themselves and yet this is an issue\h
that they have a hard time reporting they uh have\h\h

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received some of the pilots have interviewed\h
have received uh to see some resist letters\h\h

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um and the their companies are just frankly not\h
supportive of that conversation um and I see it\h\h

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being extremely similar parallel to the you know\h
the scientific methodology that you've agreed to\h\h

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you've looked at you've agreed to look at the data\h
and so when there is data available you're doing\h\h

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scientific servers by not actually looking at it\h
right I mean and one of the premises that I've\h\h

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pushed and this is you know I engage on Twitter\h
and I just started on Reddit is you know how do\h\h

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we teach the let's say the uh the lay public\h
who's interested in this matter to talk about\h\h

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the matter in a scientific way because I mean\h
let's let's sort of take a couple of steps back\h\h

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um how does a scientist believe what it\h
is that they see what how do we how do we\h\h

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validate something so if you're a so-called\h
experiencer you experience something and as\h\h

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many people know I experienced something when\h
I was young I saw a craft go right over my head\h\h

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um so but I didn't know what it was at the\h
time there was no ufology at the time so for\h\h

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me that was an experience and it's in many ways\h
in conventional terms it's an anecdote but I want\h\h

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to talk about the word anecdote a little bit in\h
a minute um and so I don't need proof of anything\h\h

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to know that it's real but if I want to convince\h
my scientific colleagues then the agreement has\h\h

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to be that there's another language that's being\h
used right so that language is the language of\h\h

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science is something that I can create data\h
sets that can be handed to other people they\h\h

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can either believe or not my conclusions\h
or my assumptions my speculations about\h\h

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what that data means so what I've been trying to\h
teach the uh the let's say the the lay public is\h\h

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prove that the data is valid you don't\h
have to come to a conclusion you don't\h\h

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have to believe it's the Pleiadians you know\h
from Alpha Centauri or something right you\h\h

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just have to convince another scientist or\h
another individual that the data is real\h\h

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once the data is real you get to actually turn\h
the tables you now aren't responsible for coming\h\h

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up with the answer you can now say look we're\h
scientists to the extent that you're interested in\h\h

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this data you tell me what it is that you think it\h
is help me speculate I'll give you a if if I give\h\h

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you a speculation I'm not looking for you to throw\h
it on the ground stomp on it I'm looking for you\h\h

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to work with me to figure out what the angles are\h
that best describe the data that we're observing\h\h

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I agree 100 and I see that a lot of times people\h
they either don't want to look at the data and you\h\h

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really can't force them to really look at it you\h
kind of have to wait for them to be in a mental\h\h

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state where they say okay I think that there\h
might be something here I'm going to look at it\h\h

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but at the end of the day we we need more data so\h
you know maybe we can talk a little bit about how\h\h

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we could do that do you have any ideas about how\h
we can expand uh our understanding and let's just\h\h

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maybe let's pray maybe break this down to two\h
different ways we can talk about maybe sensing\h\h

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and how we're going to understand where these are\h
and then maybe we can kind of talk about further\h\h

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understanding them on the material side if that's\h
possible and I know you have a little expert well\h\h

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more than a little expertise but lots of expertise\h
and most likely both of these but um what do we\h\h

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know as far as the sensing goes we know that we\h
can detect these at least some of these objects\h\h

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um we've done it uh with our Radars um varying\h
powers of radar and we've seen progression of the\h\h

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Fidelity of the radar track files as we increase\h
that power so we think that there is some type\h\h

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of relationship there we know where to look we\h
need to perhaps modify the tools and the sensors\h\h

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so that it's specific for this task in some sense\h
these all seem like pretty achievable uh problems\h\h

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here what's what's the holdup well I think the\h
hold up frankly is that people are waiting for\h\h

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Daddy to give them the data and daddy in this\h
case is the is the government and the government\h\h

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has we know the best sensors but you know we also\h
know that as technology progresses a lot of those\h\h

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sensor systems actually eventually become publicly\h
available it might be in some way uh dumbed down\h\h

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and not as sensitive as what's available there are\h
accessible systems so the Galileo project that I'm\h\h

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a part of that Avi lobe at Harvard started uh he\h
has he's setting up a sensor system it's expensive\h\h

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um he's using uh I would say more uh let's say uh\h
an astrophysicists tool kit to look at the skies\h\h

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uh but there are of course many other tool kits\h
that could be brought to bear uh and so you know\h\h

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I think that to me the exciting part is well\h
let's collect the data on what this phenomena\h\h

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is because once you see something moving in a\h
non-conventional manner it begs the question how\h\h

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did it do it I'm I'm less interested who in who\h
might be behind them then what it is that they're\h\h

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doing because what it is that they're doing breaks\h
our current understanding of if they're real I\h\h

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mean I'm gonna always be I'm going to remain\h
a skeptic to the at least for my scientific\h\h

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colleagues to say because they don't necessarily\h
believe what it is that I think it is are so can\h\h

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we collect enough data that tells us about what\h
it is and how it is that they're moving and then\h\h

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can we look at the equations of physics that tell\h
us how it is that we might do something similar\h\h

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because if if they are doing these things that are\h
unconventional or frankly impossible as you know\h\h

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as a pilot then uh somebody has access to either\h
levels of power or levels of physics understanding\h\h

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that we don't appreciate I see a huge commercial\h
gold mine in that and so I mean I'll just jump\h\h

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why do I think that way my whole career has\h
been creating technologies that I think of\h\h

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as inevitable I look at something and I say ah we\h
need this kind of data nobody else has it because\h\h

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if we have that kind of data we can jump here and\h
so then I spend the time to invent that technology\h\h

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every time that I sit in a lecture the first thing\h
that comes to mind when I'm watching stuff is okay\h\h

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how can I use how can they use that what's the\h
best how how can we use this for patient benefit\h\h

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um so with that same mindset I look at all of\h
the things that are going on right now in the UAP\h\h

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Arena and say okay how can we do that what's the\h
what are the Exotic technologies that people are\h\h

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already beginning to develop that might be part\h
of the solution to what it is that those things\h\h

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are doing because it's it's like you know those\h
those sins-like games where you build structure\h\h

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you build something that builds something that\h
builds something you know are we going to be\h\h

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flying around an anti-gravity craft next year no\h
but we'll anything along the path towards that\h\h

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is an extraordinary Advantage even just small you\h
know improvements in efficiency or weight you're\h\h

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writing those things yeah absolutely it's an\h
evolutionary process I mean you you know you you\h\h

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have to have a goal though Evolution doesn't think\h
but an evolutionary process can be brought to bear\h\h

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on all of this because what you need to do is you\h
need to have what I've called a virtuous feedback\h\h

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cycle where let's say that we we let's say we\h
had a piece of material from a craft from these\h\h

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alleged crash retrievals you know the the word on\h
the street is from within that nobody understands\h\h

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how these things operate they don't know where the\h
battery is they don't know where the engine is uh\h\h

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they don't know so uh somehow they are embedded\h
in the structure of the craft or maybe they're\h\h

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beaming the power from somewhere else and I'm\h
just making all of this stuff up as I go along\h\h

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so for the people out there who want to say that\h
I'm claiming all of this I'm not taking notes\h\h

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um is so so okay so they're they're craft are made\h
of things apparently that are either extracting\h\h

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energy or by themselves are the engine okay so\h
those are probably made right down at the atomic\h\h

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level there's some material aspect of these things\h
we can imagine that we don't know about we don't\h\h

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understand just gaining that information will\h
say okay there's something here why did they\h\h

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put this atom next to that atom next to that\h
atom now it might not that's not the solution\h\h

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but seeing it first of all if it's something\h
that we can't make right or we have not ever\h\h

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made well that's about as close to Smoking Gun\h
evidence you're going to get but again I'm not\h\h

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interested in saying who made it I'm interested\h
in saying or asking the question what does it do\h\h

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because the understanding that will come from that\h
once something like that is available uh which is\h\h

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not publicly available yet uh then you can bring\h
in the kinds of material scientists to say to sit\h\h

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around a table and play what if because that's\h
what scientists are really good at and frankly\h\h

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I think that one of the problems you know to\h
the extent that any of the stories about Crash\h\h

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retrievals are true where they say that they can't\h
understand it is because they haven't done this\h\h

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sort of open science that can be done now open\h
science doesn't mean it needs to be talked about\h\h

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you know it publicly in Academia but bringing\h
in academics is important so one of the so I\h\h

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wrote a white paper to one of the intelligence\h
committees uh in the run-up to the ndaa uh and\h\h

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one of the things that I put in that was you need\h
to bring in academics you need to get them uh\h\h

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clearances and is that a publicly available paper\h
what's that is that publication I have to ask\h\h

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um but uh the uh the long and the short of it was\h
guess what's in the language there's language at\h\h

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least I didn't check the last one but it was in\h
the language that said we'll start to bring in\h\h

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academic scientists and it's it's not because\h
academic scientists are better it's not like\h\h

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they're you know there there's lots of fantastic\h
scientists in the government in the military it's\h\h

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because they have a mindset of asking questions\h
that have uh not been answered they have an\h\h

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exploratory way of doing things because there's\h
there's two kinds of science that are generally\h\h

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done one is called basic research and the other\h
is translational if you have only a translational\h\h

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mindset if you look at something and you can't\h
figure out what its translatability is to utility\h\h

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then you might just walk away yeah as opposed to\h
at least the time in which I grew up the basic\h\h

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science is let's just collect information because\h
we don't know what the heck anything is this was\h\h

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like the what happened for the last two centuries\h
but suddenly you have this extraordinary resource\h\h

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and library of facts and factoids that with better\h
understanding now with a translational eye you can\h\h

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go in and say I can put this together with this\h
and this so the tinkerer you know comes along\h\h

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and says Ah this is the kind of things that I can\h
do with it so that's I think that's part of where\h\h

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I mean we're at the you know even if again these\h
alleged things are are real we're at the beginning\h\h

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of collecting the basic information and then\h
saying how can we use this and you would think\h\h

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that exists better under the material science\h
umbrella oh definitely yeah I mean you know so\h\h

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let's look at the kinds of instruments that\h
are out there right now they're crude I mean\h\h

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really are I mean you know the the best mass\h
spectrometers uh that tell you what things are\h\h

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made of for instance what atoms and Isotopes are\h
there I don't mean radioactive isotopes I mean\h\h

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just variations of flavors of iron and flavors of\h
different um different elements uh understanding\h\h

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what is there is not just saying there's this\h
percentage of iron and there's this percentage\h\h

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of that it's knowing the exact structure of where\h
those atoms are so you know one of my friends and\h\h

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colleagues who's actually the guy who helped found\h
the Galileo project is Frank lockian so Frank uh\h\h

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owns uh the CEO of Brooker Brooker is a huge mass\h
spectrometry company everybody in my field knows\h\h

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this so guess what he's interested in he happens\h
to be interested in the UAP issue uh he's he's\h\h

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funded that and uh so but even he realizes that\h
the technology is insufficient the granularity\h\h

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that we require to understand these things is uh\h
not there now are we closed yes we're very I think\h\h

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we're very close yeah there's there's several ways\h
that I'm pursuing that uh will will get us there\h\h

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um but I think the way to to look at it is that\h
even if all of the suppositions about UAP are\h\h

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some kind of Illusion or mistake developing the\h
Technologies in expectation of understanding we\h\h

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can turn those same tools towards simply you\h
know conventional materials because as I've\h\h

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said you know to friends of mine we don't\h
even understand the structure of glass we\h\h

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don't even understand frankly the structure of\h
water an ice and we can make we can model it but\h\h

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we don't know it and why would you want to know\h
that because if and you were involved in a sort\h\h

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of a generative AI uh approach for materials is\h
there's this whole thing called structure function\h\h

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um you can make a structure of something\h
and you determine its function and if the\h\h

260
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structure works and and in a way that you want\h
then that's fine but usually Evolution you vary\h\h

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the structure a little bit and then you say\h
did the function change is it better or worse\h\h

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um but the feedback cycle is best let's say\h
enabled and fed by an exact understanding of\h\h

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what that structure is not a modeled understanding\h
that you did in silico and so this is the kind of\h\h

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thing that better Imaging approaches of Imaging\h
of materials in situ will vastly improve our uh\h\h

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larger industrial capabilities and then should\h
somebody say oh well that's a great capability\h\h

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I have this thing in a vault that's been there for\h
40 years maybe I should bring it out because maybe\h\h

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you can help me with it yeah so this this type\h
of Technology we would be it now are we is is\h\h

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this like a kind of pre-quantum level we're not\h
getting down to the area where Quantum effects\h\h

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take place no it's um I mean that that of course\h
would be the next level uh this is just knowing\h\h

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where the atoms are in 3D space at the at the\h
subangstrom level uh because down at that level\h\h

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you can start to make best guesses as to the\h
bond structure of the objects uh but this gets\h\h

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into a slightly different area right and that's\h
um so Jacque Valley a friend of mine uh brought\h\h

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me any of a number of materials that uh had a very\h
decent history Witnesses uh and chain of evidence\h\h

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um involved with them and one of the materials\h
he brought was the so-called and very well-known\h\h

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ubatuba event and so I went uh with Jacques over\h
to an instrument on Stanford's campus and the\h\h

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engineering quad uh it's called a secondary ion\h
Mass Spec it's called the nanosims made by Kamika\h\h

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um and uh we put uh basically on\h
something that looked like this\h\h

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uh this would be the disc where you have several\h
samples on that disk and so he had two versions\h\h

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of this material this metallic material that had\h
supposedly come from an A an explosion of a craft\h\h

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uh and they had two different samples that had\h
two different chains of evidence they both looked\h\h

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identical as far as I could tell um and then we\h
did the uh the secondary iron Mass Spec of it we\h\h

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but they were done in the same instrument you put\h
them into this vacuum chamber somebody shoots a\h\h

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beam of you shoot a beam of ions at them those are\h
the primary ions they basically like a sandblaster\h\h

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lift off secondary ions and then they go into uh\h
something which measures the weight of them so\h\h

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what was the the long and short of that was that\h
one of the samples and it was mostly it was made\h\h

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of magnesium and a few other things the Magnesium\h
ratios of the Isotopes were normal right so\h\h

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there's magnesium 23 24 and 25 or 24 25 26 I don't\h
quite remember um but and they're supposed to be\h\h

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90 11 9 that's what you would find pretty much\h
anywhere on Earth those would be the percentages\h\h

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it was like okay that's normal not I mean it\h
doesn't mean it didn't come from a craft it just\h\h

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means it's normal something that you would find\h
here something you would find here the other one\h\h

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was like way off I mean just so far off Baseline\h
as it wasn't even like an error of measurement\h\h

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and the reason one of the one of the reasons I\h
can I feel comfortable saying that is we we did\h\h

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multiple runs on that same sample and it was all\h
done in the same instrument at the same time so it\h\h

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wasn't like I came back the next day and somebody\h
had you know Mis you know turned a dial the wrong\h\h

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way or anything and and so that got me thinking\h
I mean it doesn't prove it's extraterrestrial\h\h

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but it proves that somebody engineered the\h
ratios for a reason or there was an industrial\h\h

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process that created that ratio so that begs I\h
mean and at the time that this thing was found\h\h

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this was decades ago that would have been an\h
expensive proposition to make that so why would\h\h

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you blow it up over a beach you know in Brazil so\h
that's the first question is why you know how how\h\h

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expensive is it could you do it the second\h
question is why would you change the ratios\h\h

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because we don't use Isotopes for frankly anything\h
other than blowing stuff up or radioactive tracers\h\h

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in bodies or as an anti-cancer right so we\h
have a very limited understanding of what's\h\h

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the difference between iron 54 and iron 55. so one\h
of the differences is something that you alluded\h\h

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to earlier the quantum states of what goes on\h
inside of the nucleus uh and that there are\h\h

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very subtle but interesting differences that go\h
down that go on down to that level that actually\h\h

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humans use we actually use in nuclear magnetic\h
resonance when you go for an NMR they're actually\h\h

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using isotopes that have a magnetic subtlety\h
that can be detected in a magnetic field that's\h\h

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different than the other isotopes of that same\h
element so on that track chemists have started\h\h

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to understand now that I can take I can take an\h
isotope of one molecule of one element and put\h\h

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it in a structure of a molecule and it actually\h
has a slightly different function than the other\h\h

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one it's it's subtle it's like the difference\h
between you know red and red orange but it is\h\h

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enough of a difference that it actually becomes\h
valuable even in say Pharmaceuticals and one\h\h

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of the interesting ones is so lithium so lithium\h
uh is uh used in Psychiatry for bipolar disorder\h\h

314
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amongst a few other things I know that because\h
my aunt actually had bipolar um and so there's\h\h

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lithium four and five or five and six I'm gonna\h
get in trouble for not knowing my elemental table\h\h

316
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um and so somebody did a study once where they I\h
don't know why they necessarily did it were they\h\h

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used one of the lithium Isotopes versus the other\h
on um on uh nursing rats with pups and the normal\h\h

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one nothing happened the normal lithium but when\h
they took lithium of one of the Isotopes versus\h\h

319
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the other one of the Isotopes the rats ignored\h
the pups oh really yeah and the other one it over\h\h

320
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weaned really the pups that's fascinating\h
because that means that the human body\h\h

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is sort of a sensor capable of detecting the\h
difference between those two isotopes and\h\h

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somehow affected the brain chemistry differently\h
okay so there's there's another example is uh is\h\h

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um in quantum computers and and creating Quantum\h
holes Quantum holes well you know I mean holes in\h\h

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in uh in material where you can do uh entanglement\h
okay right and so silicon is one of them it turns\h\h

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out that one of the Silicon isolates allows for\h
the quantum state to be maintained longer than\h\h

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another all right so there's some functionality we\h
just really haven't got to that we haven't gotten\h\h

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to that level of understanding of why you would\h
do it but you but again what I'm saying is it's\h\h

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inevitable yeah inevitably we will reach a level\h
of understanding we're doing something like this\h\h

329
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:35,580
and using the subtleties of nature uh is going to\h
be a positive thing I mean I often put it this way\h\h

330
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:42,720
humans currently paint the world in 85 elements\h
we could be painting and maybe somebody else is\h\h

331
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:50,280
already painting the world in the 253 or so\h
stable isotopes yeah they've already opened\h\h

332
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,060
that up yeah they're in technical or we're still\h
black and white so we can tell essentially with\h\h

333
00:33:54,060 --> 00:33:58,260
the technology we have now and that and we'll talk\h
a little bit more about it but you're creating new\h\h

334
00:33:58,260 --> 00:34:04,860
technology that will give a better window into\h
into that regime and maybe we can't necessarily\h\h

335
00:34:04,860 --> 00:34:10,860
say with certainly on every material that it's not\h
from here but they are presenting extremely unique\h\h

336
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:17,400
um you know ratios and makeup that make it very\h
interesting if if nothing else yeah well let me\h\h

337
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:26,520
just let's just ask the question about the ubatuba\h
event okay why would you do it and uh why would\h\h

338
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:33,300
you is it is it part of some refuse uh that the\h
craft doesn't use is it the exhaust from The Craft\h\h

339
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:37,740
um there's another set of cases that are really\h
interesting and there's actually multiple cases\h\h

340
00:34:37,740 --> 00:34:41,940
of this where a craft is seen and the one I\h
actually published a peer-reviewed paper on\h\h

341
00:34:41,940 --> 00:34:48,060
this one uh it's actually the first ever\h
peer-reviewed paper in a major journal uh\h\h

342
00:34:48,060 --> 00:34:55,260
on so-called UFO materials and it was the uh\h
the so-called Council Bluffs case Circa 1976.\h\h

343
00:34:56,700 --> 00:35:05,820
um craft a scene over Council Bluffs Iowa oh Iowa\h
yeah and uh and uh the scene is basically seen in\h\h

344
00:35:05,820 --> 00:35:11,820
the distance from the city by multiple individuals\h
and then lights flashing and the kind of the usual\h\h

345
00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:20,820
uh and then something seems to drop from the\h
craft and so several cars Converge on the site\h\h

346
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:30,720
including the police uh and so on the ground is a\h
pool of liquid metal like 35 or so pounds it the\h\h

347
00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:35,880
I have the original pictures that the that the\h
police took should this is all through Jacques\h\h

348
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:42,240
Valley uh and so I analyze those materials not\h
to prove that it was anything and not to make\h\h

349
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:48,960
a conclusion but to basically get the data out\h
there right to create the data now what do we\h\h

350
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,740
find anything interesting we didn't find any\h
strange ratios but what was interesting about\h\h

351
00:35:52,740 --> 00:35:58,080
that and we could prove at least extrapolate that\h
it wasn't you know somebody was flying over in a\h\h

352
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,340
helicopter and dropped you know a molten metal\h
because the cost to doing that would be too much\h\h

353
00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:07,440
um and a lot of other reasons why but what\h
was interesting about the material was\h\h

354
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:14,100
depending on where you looked in the material\h
the elemental ratios were different it was iron\h\h

355
00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:21,600
nickel a few other things in there silicon\h
um okay it's it's it's not homogeneous\h\h

356
00:36:22,260 --> 00:36:28,380
it's kind of like you melt uh vanilla and\h
chocolate ice cream you only partly swirl\h\h

357
00:36:28,380 --> 00:36:37,260
it you didn't put it in the blender right so why\h
would that so what industrial process would create\h\h

358
00:36:37,260 --> 00:36:44,880
this and I've got a similar sample from Australia\h
there's another one in Fresno that if the guy who\h\h

359
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,320
who offered it is mad at me for not coming and\h
picking it up it's just because I haven't had\h\h

360
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:54,780
the time with the same story he found it in his\h
driveway they saw it and then they he found those\h\h

361
00:36:54,780 --> 00:37:00,000
metal in his driveway liquid a liquid liquid\h
pool yeah well he found he found the the the\h\h

362
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:07,740
um he saw the the object and then the next day\h
they found this metal in in the asphalt of their\h\h

363
00:37:07,740 --> 00:37:13,560
of their driveway so one of the things that I\h
want to be able to do is collect a number of these\h\h

364
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:20,340
events uh to see well what are the similarities\h
you know are the same elements there and and why\h\h

365
00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:26,820
is it that they're dropping these metals again is\h
it part of the exhaust is it is it something went\h\h

366
00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:31,320
unstable and needed to be needed to get rid\h
of it I don't know I have no idea what it is\h\h

367
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:37,860
um but again creating that data and getting it out\h
there and then giving people this is important as\h\h

368
00:37:37,860 --> 00:37:46,620
part of what you were saying before giving people\h
the permission to study it and and creating an\h\h

369
00:37:46,620 --> 00:37:52,200
atmosphere where it's okay to talk about this\h
is what's going to bring It Forward I can't do\h\h

370
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:57,000
everything I'm just going to say that it's being\h
brought I mean I I'm being I'm being offered\h\h

371
00:37:57,780 --> 00:38:05,400
dozens of opportunities very few of which I can\h
follow up on nor will I follow up on until I\h\h

372
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:11,940
have a Consolidated pipeline of analysis that\h
will allow me to put all of them through in a\h\h

373
00:38:11,940 --> 00:38:16,380
standardized way so that I could eventually\h
publish a paper that says well here again is\h\h

374
00:38:16,380 --> 00:38:21,360
the data but here's now the comparison group of\h
other things that were like this and here are\h\h

375
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:27,900
you know in science we call them controls here\h
are human materials analyzed in the same way I\h\h

376
00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:34,680
mean it's expensive uh you know I've personally\h
put you know at this point now probably about a\h\h

377
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:42,120
hundred thousand dollars of my own money and time\h
uh to do this kind of analysis uh and at I use\h\h

378
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,480
Stanford equipment if Stanford's perfectly\h
fine with that I'm not breaking any rules\h\h

379
00:38:46,260 --> 00:38:53,100
as long as I pay for it pay for the time um\h
because I want to get that data out there right\h\h

380
00:38:53,100 --> 00:39:00,120
and I and and once you've done that then you can\h
point other people so here's how you do it because\h\h

381
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:07,020
it's the peer review process that lets you talk\h
to another scientist and say this has been vetted\h\h

382
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:13,440
right you can't do it by Twitter you can't do\h
it in a press release you can't do a one-off\h\h

383
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:21,240
study because it has no correlation to any prior\h
knowledge so how do we how do we interface with\h\h

384
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:26,940
the academic institution and the scientists\h
like yourself that don't that don't have you\h\h

385
00:39:26,940 --> 00:39:30,960
know this this fits on the Cracks right\h
this doesn't fit seamlessly into you know\h\h

386
00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:38,520
um anyone's Camp right now in the academic world\h
um how do we how do we open the door for them how\h\h

387
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,320
do we support that ecosystem well part of it is\h
is well it's money I mean I've said this before\h\h

388
00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:49,380
um that you know scientists will follow the money\h
I mean they can't they these the instruments are\h\h

389
00:39:49,380 --> 00:39:54,060
expensive to do the instruments exist you don't\h
need to buy all of the instruments to begin the\h\h

390
00:39:54,060 --> 00:40:01,140
study you they you know uh you can rent access\h
on them in I mean in Silicon Valley there are\h\h

391
00:40:01,140 --> 00:40:06,360
multiple companies that provide these kinds of\h
services to the chip industry because the chip\h\h

392
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,540
industry wants to do exactly what I was just\h
talking about they want to understand what went\h\h

393
00:40:09,540 --> 00:40:14,280
right and what went wrong and the things that they\h
make so those facilities are all available you\h\h

394
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:20,280
just rent time on them uh and so you you need that\h
kind of money so one of the things that I'm doing\h\h

395
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:27,420
uh is uh rather than wait for the government to\h
give me the money I'm setting up uh organization\h\h

396
00:40:27,420 --> 00:40:33,180
that is bringing in charitable funds and hopefully\h
by next year we'll have the ability to talk much\h\h

397
00:40:33,180 --> 00:40:38,760
more about it but with those charitable funds\h
we'll be able to do at least two things will be\h\h

398
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,980
able to write policy papers to the government as\h
to why they should support this kind of research\h\h

399
00:40:43,980 --> 00:40:48,480
because then what you're doing is you're giving\h
the people on on the inside if you've got sort of\h\h

400
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:55,920
like a a a think tank on the outside who's writing\h
all of the reasons and giving them the crib notes\h\h

401
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:01,620
that they need to make the arguments to their\h
upper cloud and to make the arguments to the to\h\h

402
00:41:01,620 --> 00:41:10,020
either the generals or the politicians um so you\h
you need to provide that so where do you get that\h\h

403
00:41:10,020 --> 00:41:17,160
you you Source the writing from academics and if\h
you pay an academic ten thousand dollars to write\h\h

404
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:22,320
such a thing that they'll probably jump at it you\h
know especially you know I mean most academics\h\h

405
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,900
aren't Rich most academics don't go out and start\h
companies so that's at one level but with again\h\h

406
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:33,000
sufficient resources you get to do something else\h
now you get to give money to postdoctoral fellows\h\h

407
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:39,780
or to Laboratories where you can say I want this\h
studied you know you you don't have to find that\h\h

408
00:41:39,780 --> 00:41:45,720
person you just need to put out the fact that\h
you have the money and then you hopefully get\h\h

409
00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:51,660
enough credible applications Grant applications\h
for it you have then a team of scientists vet\h\h

410
00:41:51,660 --> 00:41:56,700
the applications you give them the money you\h
let them go they publish a paper that further\h\h

411
00:41:56,700 --> 00:42:02,820
opens the aperture you do this in enough places\h
and suddenly it's a field now it's a credible\h\h

412
00:42:02,820 --> 00:42:08,880
field right you you don't start I don't think\h
at least now you don't start your own journal\h\h

413
00:42:09,660 --> 00:42:16,860
because in your own journal can then be ridiculed\h
by the mainstream journals it's isolated it's\h\h

414
00:42:16,860 --> 00:42:22,680
isolated you you write the papers like I wrote\h
this Council Bluffs paper I didn't make any\h\h

415
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:27,240
conclusions I just said here's what happened\h
here's we happened and then we talked to the\h\h

416
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:31,260
editor we said would you be interested in this\h
as well as long as you don't go all UFO on it\h\h

417
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,520
yeah we'll look at it they send it out to\h
reviewers the viewers said this is really cool\h\h

418
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:42,960
um we'll do it so so you have to find you know\h
you're not going to get into science or nature on\h\h

419
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:50,460
day one right but you'll get it into the mid-level\h
journals that then creates a track record uh on\h\h

420
00:42:50,460 --> 00:42:56,760
that is then usable by other scientists because\h
then they can cite it because science is built on\h\h

421
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:02,940
a foundation of knowledge that you can basically\h
cite prior knowledge and how your new finding\h\h

422
00:43:02,940 --> 00:43:07,860
relates to the prior thing and that's that whole\h
correlation map that I was talking about before\h\h

423
00:43:07,860 --> 00:43:12,780
if you create a piece of data out in the middle\h
of nowhere it might as well be in Alpha Centauri\h\h

424
00:43:12,780 --> 00:43:17,760
or in the Andromeda galaxy because it doesn't\h
have any relationship to the prior knowledge\h\h

425
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:22,560
it sounds pretty achievable I mean this all\h
sounds like it's it's a pretty achievable\h\h

426
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:28,260
process here to get Academia looking into this\h
it doesn't sound like there's any major it's not\h\h

427
00:43:28,260 --> 00:43:31,500
it's not hundreds of millions of dollars I mean\h
I'd love hundreds of millions of dollars but it's\h\h

428
00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:36,060
not hundreds of million dollars it's a few it's a\h
few Millions to get going and then a few tens of\h\h

429
00:43:36,060 --> 00:43:42,360
millions once the but then again that's that\h
virtuous cycle once you show credibility and\h\h

430
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:49,320
once some opportunity is realized and I mean by\h
that kind of a a sort of a translational thing\h\h

431
00:43:50,640 --> 00:44:00,720
like in Silicon Valley the first idea out the\h
gate to try to get funded is very rarely the\h\h

432
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:07,620
one that ever gets funded it's the follow-ons\h
on the copycats that then grow the field and so\h\h

433
00:44:07,620 --> 00:44:13,500
that really is what I'm what I'm aiming for and\h
I've said this publicly I said I don't need to\h\h

434
00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:18,840
be the one who does it I don't need to be the\h
hero I don't need all the glory I just want to\h\h

435
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:26,100
create a space wherein others can come in and do\h
that because it's inevitable have you identified\h\h

436
00:44:26,100 --> 00:44:29,580
any of those people that might be willing\h
to have that conversation and can you share\h\h

437
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,900
I mean I won't I haven't asked them\h
permission to talk about their stuff but\h\h

438
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:39,840
um yeah there's there's quite a few and it's more\h
or is this more mainstream are there new names do\h\h

439
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,460
we see this growing expanding or is it kind of\h
the same conversation with the same people with\h\h

440
00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:50,460
you know no I mean the same people I mean there's\h
lots of the same people but I've seen the kinds of\h\h

441
00:44:50,460 --> 00:44:54,480
data and approaches that they're doing and it's\h
not necessarily how I would approach I'm not\h\h

442
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:59,700
saying it's wrong I don't want to be some sort\h
of elite you know uh University snob about it\h\h

443
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:08,160
um I'm just saying that we you you you you don't\h
necessarily want the older folks doing it you want\h\h

444
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:13,980
to trigger the minds of the younger folks doing\h
it so for instance sitting in my inbox are offers\h\h

445
00:45:13,980 --> 00:45:18,180
from graduate students and post docs and all\h
over the place everything went from Princeton\h\h

446
00:45:18,180 --> 00:45:25,080
Harvard MIT Etc they're saying hey how can I help\h
because those are the minds that you want because\h\h

447
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:30,360
they're the ones who make an eventual career out\h
of it right I've already got a career this is my\h\h

448
00:45:31,020 --> 00:45:37,740
you know the cherry on top as far as I'm concerned\h
approach to things so I mean it's it it's not\h\h

449
00:45:37,740 --> 00:45:43,080
going to happen tomorrow but I think it's it's\h
basically creating the fertile ground that others\h\h

450
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:48,180
can be able to step into that's what I hope to\h
do with all of this I see create a place where\h\h

451
00:45:48,180 --> 00:45:52,560
you can support it in a kind of sustained\h
Manner and keep the conversation going no\h\h

452
00:45:53,940 --> 00:46:00,480
very good so I know you've been just recently been\h
working with a team of very respectful scientists\h\h

453
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:06,600
uh it was announced today although this will\h
air in the future and it'll be about a month\h\h

454
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:11,580
old or so but would you mind talking a little\h
bit about Copernicus right so Copernicus is\h\h

455
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:17,880
um a space Development Corporation I don't\h
by the way just to be clear I don't speak\h\h

456
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:26,400
for them I don't have permission to speak for\h
their corporate you know uh objectives Etc but\h\h

457
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:33,720
um I am on the scientific Advisory Board of the\h
company and it's something started and founded\h\h

458
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:41,160
um by Avi Loeb Frank lockian and a group of other\h
scientists very respectable astrophysicists and\h\h

459
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:47,160
physicists from Harvard and interestingly a good\h
friend of mine George Church uh extraordinarily\h\h

460
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:56,280
well-known uh uh genomics expert um and so what\h
is the purpose of Copernicus it's uh actually to\h\h

461
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:04,560
upend the space exploration uh on Paradigm right\h
now we spend billions of dollars sending a robot\h\h

462
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:10,320
and I love the stuff that's coming from the Viking\h
or wherever else spend billions of dollars and oh\h\h

463
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:17,160
my God we hope it doesn't crash right you know and\h
a couple have the Russians seem to have no good\h\h

464
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:25,920
luck going to Mars um for instance they've had a\h
number of their craft crash on the way and uh so\h\h

465
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:32,940
okay what's the reverse well how about making much\h
smaller objects but making them at scale making\h\h

466
00:47:33,660 --> 00:47:39,600
tens of thousands of them and sending them\h
out around just our own solar system even\h\h

467
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:47,160
uh and uh small enough so that they can collect\h
data let's say beam it back to a local uh\h\h

468
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:52,320
um Transit point and then that Transit point then\h
has the power to beam it back to Earth now you\h\h

469
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:59,400
have hundreds thousands of eyes scattered around\h
the solar system now avi's interest has been the\h\h

470
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:04,560
uma uma comment on a comment asteroid or uh\h
object that came through the solar system\h\h

471
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:11,580
that he had reason to believe might not have\h
been a natural phenomenon uh and so I think\h\h

472
00:48:11,580 --> 00:48:17,400
Aviana in a similar way is propelled or was\h
propelled by the same thing that propelled me\h\h

473
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:23,160
he had an idea somebody told him it\h
was ridiculous and he said all right\h\h

474
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:30,540
I'm gonna show you and so rather that I mean\h
obviously we can't go out to that object he's\h\h

475
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:36,960
gonna he said well look if somebody else has been\h
here you know and they've if they have been here\h\h

476
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,980
is they've been here probably for millions of\h
years or they passed through millions of years\h\h

477
00:48:40,980 --> 00:48:46,500
ago we can't expect that they're contemporaneous\h
with us necessarily they've probably left residue\h\h

478
00:48:47,100 --> 00:48:53,280
of that so that's one reason for going out and\h
looking in our local solar system you can't you\h\h

479
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:58,620
can't go out one at a time and just look here\h
and look there you want to basically try to\h\h

480
00:48:58,620 --> 00:49:03,720
do everything all at once but there's a there's a\h
secondary mission of this which is the search for\h\h

481
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:09,900
life right that if we're going to do this we might\h
be able to send out again hundreds or thousands of\h\h

482
00:49:09,900 --> 00:49:16,020
these things to go explore the atmosphere of\h
Venus explore Europa you know drop dozens of\h\h

483
00:49:16,020 --> 00:49:22,920
these things uh on the ice on Europa and then see\h
if you can look with a just a standard microscope\h\h

484
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:30,360
nothing super fancy but you know there's there's\h
yet another objective here and that is to make\h\h

485
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:36,960
things that can build themselves okay right things\h
that can use local materials make more copies of\h\h

486
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:45,720
themselves and uh then or or at the very least\h
set up a forward camp where other things can\h\h

487
00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:50,280
come in and do the next level of building I think\h
Professor Hansen would like to have over with you\h\h

488
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:56,460
about Von Newman probes yeah our ability to get\h
grab you within the the Universe um and I think\h\h

489
00:49:56,460 --> 00:50:01,620
that's you know that's it I think it's bigger\h
than maybe I think you guys are necessarily\h\h

490
00:50:01,620 --> 00:50:07,200
communicating at this point I mean this is really\h
a pathway for us to explore you know potentially\h\h

491
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:13,380
the whole County over a number of years a decade\h
or not decades centuries yes me millions of years\h\h

492
00:50:13,380 --> 00:50:18,900
but um but in the in the in the in the grand\h
scheme of of the universe it's like a decade it's\h\h

493
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:23,940
very quick amount of time here it's it's the start\h
of a start of the end of a colonization process\h\h

494
00:50:23,940 --> 00:50:29,760
essentially theoretically right so you know I\h
was looking at the people that were on it and his\h\h

495
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:35,580
credible uh listen names on there uh there seem to\h
be some people with some biological uh specialty\h\h

496
00:50:35,580 --> 00:50:42,000
so could you maybe describe or talk about the\h
type of technology that you would utilize here\h\h

497
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,740
maybe it would be a slightly different than your\h
traditional spacecraft right well I mean the the\h\h

498
00:50:46,740 --> 00:50:51,840
biological component would potentially be and\h
this would be more of the expertise of of George\h\h

499
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:57,420
church and again I'm not speaking for George I'm\h
just you know I'm imagining some of the things I\h\h

500
00:50:57,420 --> 00:51:03,780
know that could be that could be done here um is\h
that you know you can make or even use you need\h\h

501
00:51:03,780 --> 00:51:09,600
to make the life you can George is a specialist in\h
synthetic life or what's called synthetic biology\h\h

502
00:51:11,340 --> 00:51:20,520
um you can use current bacteria even to help you\h
mine asteroids right you'd have to of course set\h\h

503
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:26,700
create a local ecosystem you'd have to get the\h
temperatures right Etc but imagine if you could\h\h

504
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:35,400
begin to mine out the materials not by having\h
a machine but by providing enough water and uh\h\h

505
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:44,040
bacteria they use the local substrate to basically\h
make stuff break it down to its component\h\h

506
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:51,540
parts and as feedstock to build more copies of\h
themselves just a big sludge almost that process\h\h

507
00:51:51,540 --> 00:51:55,620
yeah I mean this goes into the whole gray goo\h
area and all of that I don't think we're at the\h\h

508
00:51:55,620 --> 00:52:02,220
Gray Goose stage we're not at the uh uh we're not\h
at the nanobot stage uh or anywhere close to that\h\h

509
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:10,680
um but so I think that so it it'll be a mixture\h
if we can I mean look bacteria have been doing\h\h

510
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:20,220
this for literally billions of years so why don't\h
we use the best miners in our solar system for\h\h

511
00:52:20,220 --> 00:52:24,600
this the best miners on our solar systems are\h
not Gophers they're actually bacteria really\h\h

512
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:31,020
right I mean they do this stuff incredibly they do\h
chemical Feats that are chemists are still trying\h\h

513
00:52:31,020 --> 00:52:36,240
to understand and replicate so that that's you\h
know really one of the reasons why a person like\h\h

514
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:41,580
George is brought on board but I mean it's sort of\h
an interesting I didn't bring George on it's sort\h\h

515
00:52:41,580 --> 00:52:46,500
of an interesting circling back to some something\h
that happened with me and and George probably\h\h

516
00:52:46,500 --> 00:52:54,240
about five or six years ago he had a conference\h
on what he called the genetics of space okay and\h\h

517
00:52:54,240 --> 00:53:00,780
and he brought in basically a lot of relatively\h
conventional um but forward-thinking scientists\h\h

518
00:53:00,780 --> 00:53:07,680
including one of the um the astronauts who had his\h
brother go up at the same time we had a planetary\h\h

519
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:13,140
science in there and I'd had a conversation with\h
him a few months before the conference about my\h\h

520
00:53:13,140 --> 00:53:20,820
UFO stuff he said Gary what's going on and I told\h
him some of the stories uh about um well about the\h\h

521
00:53:20,820 --> 00:53:26,520
patients the the patients who had been harmed\h
uh the whole Havana syndrome and the some of\h\h

522
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:32,100
the other pilots who were non-havana he said why\h
don't you come and talk about your analysis at my\h\h

523
00:53:32,100 --> 00:53:38,520
seminar and I thought whoa whoa this is going\h
to be a talk at Harvard Medical School uh on a\h\h

524
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:44,580
subject area that I haven't given a talk on ever\h
before um I said are you sure I said I'll do it\h\h

525
00:53:45,420 --> 00:53:53,520
and I did and I gave the talk and there was\h
this sort of stunned Silence from the audience\h\h

526
00:53:54,180 --> 00:54:03,660
and then the question started uh and they were\h
good questions yeah um and so I and so you know\h\h

527
00:54:03,660 --> 00:54:11,640
who offered at the time then who who said Gary if\h
you need help on these materials George yeah so I\h\h

528
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:18,240
plant so I'm not saying that I planted a seed then\h
he might have already been considering but I mean\h\h

529
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:27,000
and George is a towering figure in the field uh\h
so you you have a person like that now sitting on\h\h

530
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:33,660
an Advisory Board of a space exploration that's at\h
one level looking at translational but at the same\h\h

531
00:54:33,660 --> 00:54:39,900
level we're doing the kind of basic science\h
to collect the data and as a side benefit if\h\h

532
00:54:40,620 --> 00:54:44,880
somebody else shows up while we're doing this or\h
we see evidence of somebody else has been there\h\h

533
00:54:45,540 --> 00:54:52,440
we're collecting the data so it sort of has\h
a has a has three simultaneous and plus it's\h\h

534
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,340
cheaper and we're not going to be building\h
our own our own I mean we said this in the\h\h

535
00:54:56,340 --> 00:55:01,980
in the they said it in the press release we're\h
not building our own launch capabilities we're\h\h

536
00:55:01,980 --> 00:55:05,880
using other the other launch capabilities\h
that other people are generating and just\h\h

537
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:11,040
hitching pain to Hitch the right certainly\h
yeah I think that's how it'll go what about\h\h

538
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:15,360
um so that's two do you feel that uh the other\h
members of the group have that kind of same\h\h

539
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:19,920
general feeling towards the UAP topic or has\h
that not been approached yet it hasn't been I\h\h

540
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:25,800
mean I haven't we haven't had the the the the\h
the um scientific Advisory board but you know\h\h

541
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:30,360
Frank lockian is one of the you basically\h
provided uh some of the funding for this\h\h

542
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:38,940
um you know I don't think anybody who knows\h
Avi is unaware of his interest in this area\h\h

543
00:55:40,500 --> 00:55:48,600
um and I think even navi's interest or at least\h
explicit uh being open-minded about current uaps\h\h

544
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:53,940
as opposed to you know centuries-old things that\h
happen to wander through the the solar system is\h\h

545
00:55:53,940 --> 00:55:59,580
expanding they're aware of this and they're aware\h
of the controversy around uma uma they're all in\h\h

546
00:55:59,580 --> 00:56:04,860
I mean these are like famous astrophysicists and\h
physicists at Harvard I'm almost I'm almost scared\h\h

547
00:56:04,860 --> 00:56:13,560
to show up because it's it's not my not my area\h
but remarkably you know uh Stephen Wolfram is on\h\h

548
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:21,660
the board mathematical Mathematica right and\h
interestingly um wolfram's uh I'm pretty sure\h\h

549
00:56:21,660 --> 00:56:29,760
this is right that wolfram's uh Mathematica was\h
used to create the language in the movie arrival\h\h

550
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:35,700
oh really yeah that was pretty cool yeah they do\h
I think they generated the the structures with\h\h

551
00:56:35,700 --> 00:56:40,620
um some algorithms from Mathematica I think\h
so I hope that's right that's very cool\h\h

552
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:48,300
so you know we talk about getting data we talk\h
about bringing scientists on is there like a\h\h

553
00:56:48,300 --> 00:56:54,180
path to do the thing that you said we can't do now\h
which is to start drawing conclusions in any way\h\h

554
00:56:54,840 --> 00:57:00,240
I mean you get to draw conclusions when you\h
have something that wasn't made here before\h\h

555
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:07,020
you know I mean that's when I'll feel comfortable\h
I mean I I will go to the major journal if I have\h\h

556
00:57:07,020 --> 00:57:11,520
something where I have the atomic structure\h
that is not anything that can be accomplished\h\h

557
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:19,980
here and it's clearly an engineered product\h
uh and it has a baseline of provenance to it\h\h

558
00:57:19,980 --> 00:57:26,220
uh I will find a way to write a paper around\h
it I I I won't necessarily need to say that\h\h

559
00:57:26,220 --> 00:57:33,960
it that I know who made it but I can write the\h
paper in a way that says humans didn't make it\h\h

560
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:41,280
right and so there's I mean I've had I have like\h
over I don't know 320 papers published uh in my\h\h

561
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:49,740
career and there's a finessing to how you use\h
the language to write something that you can\h\h

562
00:57:49,740 --> 00:57:55,320
walk right up to the line of saying something\h
without saying it you know and and and this is\h\h

563
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,920
actually one of the things that goes on a lot and\h
the problem I have sometimes communicating ideas\h\h

564
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:05,040
to the public you know I'll use the word suggest\h
or maybe or whatever and then and then the next\h\h

565
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:11,760
thing that comes out Gary said this is true yeah\h
no I didn't the i i caveated the hell out of it\h\h

566
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:19,080
um so but I can talk to another scientist and\h
it's almost like body language I I talk to\h\h

567
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:22,500
other scientists and use that those words and\h
they understand what I'm saying and how far\h\h

568
00:58:22,500 --> 00:58:28,080
I'm going and they understand that I'm implying\h
this is probably true and or that it is enough\h\h

569
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:33,900
of a belief structure that I can now do the next\h
experiment based on that partial understanding\h\h

570
00:58:34,620 --> 00:58:39,960
so that's how a paper will be written around this\h
that's what I did with the Council Bluffs paper\h\h

571
00:58:41,220 --> 00:58:47,340
um and and it's it's Wordsmith to hell it really\h
these things are the better papers they have to\h\h

572
00:58:47,340 --> 00:58:53,700
otherwise the reviewer will call you out should we\h
believe Pilots when they see something in the sky\h\h

573
00:58:54,720 --> 00:59:00,600
I mean why not I mean uh you know that it\h
doesn't paint them as an experiencer they're\h\h

574
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:06,060
basically providing a story and in in that\h
sense I I would think of this in a clinical\h\h

575
00:59:06,060 --> 00:59:14,700
sense that story is an anecdote right now and\h
an anecdote in public parlance often means\h\h

576
00:59:14,700 --> 00:59:21,480
not just even unverified it almost means you\h
know people use it as a way to dismiss something\h\h

577
00:59:23,220 --> 00:59:31,440
um whereas in scientific parlance the language of\h
science is an anecdote a clinical anecdote is the\h\h

578
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:38,640
first let's say observation of some unusual\h
uh clinical syndrome or a malady so instead\h\h

579
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:43,320
of like that so what happens in science and in a\h
sense what's been happening with the pilots are\h\h

580
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:48,540
they're seeing something which appears to be a low\h
probability event or may not even be potentially\h\h

581
00:59:48,540 --> 00:59:51,780
a real event but it's it's an anecdote it's a\h
story about something that doesn't necessarily\h\h

582
00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:56,520
have the data to support it but that would be a\h
basis for which to gather more data so that you\h\h

583
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:02,940
can verify right well I think the other way so\h
you know we talked earlier about how anecdotes\h\h

584
01:00:02,940 --> 01:00:09,180
are are let's say one-off stories whereas\h
the scientists need something verifiable\h\h

585
01:00:09,180 --> 01:00:16,500
how many anecdotes do you need until the pattern\h
is obvious yeah right so what frankly hasn't been\h\h

586
01:00:16,500 --> 01:00:23,940
done I've been thinking about recently is what\h
kind of statistical analysis could you do on the\h\h

587
01:00:23,940 --> 01:00:31,620
anecdotes uh in a way that basically turned them\h
into a science and how many of such stories what\h\h

588
01:00:31,620 --> 01:00:35,820
are the similarities to the stories what are the\h
commonalities what's the patterns now it isn't\h\h

589
01:00:35,820 --> 01:00:41,940
as if ufologists haven't been doing this before\h
previously but they've been not published in the\h\h

590
01:00:41,940 --> 01:00:48,360
right kinds of journals I see they haven't been\h
given the credibility that is necessary and so\h\h

591
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:54,840
I think now and especially with Pilots right\h
and um whether it's military or commercial I\h\h

592
01:00:54,840 --> 01:01:00,120
mean the the military the one that you obviously\h
are are in involved with or we're involved with\h\h

593
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:06,000
is it lands an error of credibility because\h
here we have people who are entrusted with\h\h

594
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:17,160
money reputation security weapon systems expensive\h
pieces of equipment um so uh so there's a there's\h\h

595
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:23,580
a level of credibility there and then as you and\h
I have talked about as well with the commercial\h\h

596
01:01:23,580 --> 01:01:31,800
pilots they have responsibility for the plane the\h
contents the individuals the lives Etc and so um\h\h

597
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:36,900
they're they're not just and I'm not dismissing\h
the truckers who keep our nation running it's not\h\h

598
01:01:36,900 --> 01:01:43,080
a trucker uh on you know on Highway 66 uh in the\h
middle of the night who saw something in the sky\h\h

599
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:47,340
truckers don't have Radars they don't have Radars\h
they don't have all the yes that's a good point\h\h

600
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:53,820
um they don't have all the secondary verification\h
systems that are coming along with the stories of\h\h

601
01:01:53,820 --> 01:02:03,000
the pilots commercial or military so at what point\h
do you ignore the evidence and uh or stop ignoring\h\h

602
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:08,280
the evidence and say okay let's look into it\h
and I think you know for instance the stuff\h\h

603
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:13,020
that you're doing with aiaa is a perfect example\h
of that and I'm going to spell that out because\h\h

604
01:02:13,020 --> 01:02:16,980
a lot of people don't know what that is but the\h
American Institute of Aeronautics and astronautics\h\h

605
01:02:16,980 --> 01:02:21,720
so I mean the reason why I think that\h
that's important is because here you have a\h\h

606
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:28,560
a professional group of people who are engineers\h
and and scientifically inclined I mean you might\h\h

607
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:33,900
not think of them as your everyday scientist\h
and yet they still have had the same kind of\h\h

608
01:02:33,900 --> 01:02:38,520
training that you know frankly you could\h
give them a PhD for if you wanted to do so\h\h

609
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:44,520
right so uh here you have the the kinds of\h
training uh and expectations and and guess what\h\h

610
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:52,140
a lot of them see things and those who haven't\h
seen things like I have with other scientists they\h\h

611
01:02:52,140 --> 01:02:58,740
trust the people who are telling them what they've\h
seen uh and so and that seems to be a change right\h\h

612
01:02:58,740 --> 01:03:03,780
that's a huge change yeah I agree why do you think\h
that happened well I mean I think because it's\h\h

613
01:03:03,780 --> 01:03:08,580
becoming more open frankly the things that you've\h
been doing and setting it up I mean you obviously\h\h

614
01:03:08,580 --> 01:03:14,160
have amazing uh abilities to to convince people\h
to do things without me to fly down here today\h\h

615
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:23,400
um so uh so I think that what's changing is that\h
again is this it's this uh there's a permission\h\h

616
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:29,280
structure being created and that permission\h
structure is allowing people they might not\h\h

617
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:35,760
they don't need to say I believe in it they need\h
to they all they are now able to do is say okay\h\h

618
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:41,700
this is interesting and G uh somebody's raising\h
the point that these things are being seen and\h\h

619
01:03:41,700 --> 01:03:49,320
maybe that they're a Flight Risk they don't have\h
to you know go in front of the of the planes to\h\h

620
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:55,620
be a Flight Risk they only need to distract the\h
pilot sufficiently so that they make a mistake\h\h

621
01:03:55,620 --> 01:04:01,980
and so if if you're flying and you know this as\h
well better than I do if you're flying and you're\h\h

622
01:04:01,980 --> 01:04:07,260
seeing something and you're talking to the radar\h
operator down at the at the um at the airport and\h\h

623
01:04:07,260 --> 01:04:10,800
they're telling you you're not seeing something\h
you then begin to question your own judgment\h\h

624
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:15,120
and if you're questioning your judgment are you\h
going to land a plane right are you going to make\h\h

625
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:19,080
the right decisions in the right period of time\h
probably not so at very least that's a kind of\h\h

626
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:27,660
commercial uh Aviation risk now if we can explain\h
those things as non-alien non-extraterrestrial\h\h

627
01:04:27,660 --> 01:04:36,540
and some sort of natural phenomena great is then\h
we can avert the risk and so to me uh being able\h\h

628
01:04:36,540 --> 01:04:42,000
to explain something even if it ends up being not\h
what you want it to be let's say or it isn't the\h\h

629
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:48,840
most exotic of uh of answers uh basically lets\h
people get on with their lives and do things\h\h

630
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:54,900
properly now I I don't know what the pilots have\h
seen but obviously they're concerned about it\h\h

631
01:04:55,920 --> 01:05:01,320
um and I think the you know creating uh\h
as has been done now uh this group of\h\h

632
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:08,520
individuals to talk about it again the circle\h
widens absolutely um so one of the things that\h\h

633
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:13,260
we've been doing within the American Institute\h
Aeronautics astronautics and even deeper the\h\h

634
01:05:13,260 --> 01:05:18,660
integration the UAP integration Outreach\h
committee the ioc um we're working on a\h\h

635
01:05:18,660 --> 01:05:23,340
number of policy recommendations uh procedure\h
recommendations reporting recommendations\h\h

636
01:05:24,180 --> 01:05:31,500
um for NASA for their um I think it's newly named\h
the independent study team so the UAP IST I think\h\h

637
01:05:31,500 --> 01:05:36,960
is what they're called now so we're looking to\h
provide those recommendations for them and one of\h\h

638
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:45,120
the things that you've talked about is not drawing\h
conclusions but actually trusting the data so are\h\h

639
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:49,500
we asking our Pilots to submit data that we don't\h
even trust I mean what would be done with that\h\h

640
01:05:49,500 --> 01:05:54,000
data what could we do with it is anyone even\h
going to be interested in looking at it oh I'm\h\h

641
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:59,040
sure people will be interested in looking at it I\h
mean I think there's you know there's uh there's\h\h

642
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:05,100
more than enough individuals out there uh that can\h
process the kinds of data that would be produced\h\h

643
01:06:05,100 --> 01:06:09,480
as long as the data is produced in a verifiable\h
way that you know is let's say publicly available\h\h

644
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:16,620
um you know it's you're looking for Trends\h
you're looking for you know uh um principal\h\h

645
01:06:16,620 --> 01:06:23,220
component axes for what might be involved but\h
I mean look at the company Enigma right that's\h\h

646
01:06:23,220 --> 01:06:29,400
been set up on the East Coast uh they're doing\h
at least in part this they're collecting the\h\h

647
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:35,580
data and putting it into standardized data tables\h
and then they're doing an analog they're doing\h\h

648
01:06:35,580 --> 01:06:40,140
analyzes and some of that data they're going to\h
be letting out once it's vetted because you know\h\h

649
01:06:40,140 --> 01:06:45,060
this is something that jock of La often spent a\h
lot of time and he always hammers into me is that\h\h

650
01:06:45,060 --> 01:06:50,100
he says he gets a lot of data he has lots of I\h
mean he has I remember sitting in his office once\h\h

651
01:06:50,100 --> 01:06:57,000
and he had two monitors lined up next to each\h
other it was basically a big Excel spreadsheet\h\h

652
01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:06,360
and he had hundreds of rows each of them an event\h
he had a couple of hundred Columns of things\h\h

653
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:11,880
that he was peopling the wow the the data with\h
different parameters from different parameters\h\h

654
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:16,260
and then vetting them and just throwing out the\h
stuff that doesn't have sufficient information\h\h

655
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:23,280
right because you're he calls it scrubbing the\h
data uh because in in science you want to compare\h\h

656
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:28,740
like with like or if you have something that is\h
part of a comparator where you're like I would\h\h

657
01:07:28,740 --> 01:07:33,720
say I want to compare this to this you want enough\h
of this and you want enough of those so that you\h\h

658
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:37,980
can basically say well this is a repeating pattern\h
and these are the differences that are observable\h\h

659
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:43,500
um so you know he's been doing that\h
and he has a a fantastic data set\h\h

660
01:07:44,700 --> 01:07:48,840
um but others are now doing it as well I mean\h
I mean others are setting up and they have\h\h

661
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:55,020
collected this kind of data and so I think that\h
that's exciting because that data will go out\h\h

662
01:07:55,020 --> 01:08:00,840
into scientific Publications I would you know\h
one of the things I think that the aiaa can do\h\h

663
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:06,000
with this I mean there's plenty of people who\h
know math there is do these kinds of analyzes\h\h

664
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:12,960
publish it in an Aeronautics journal and run\h
with it right and then again the the the further\h\h

665
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:18,420
away you stay from a conclusion the longer\h
you will keep the attention of the audience\h\h

666
01:08:19,440 --> 01:08:24,480
and that's really important because you know all\h
it takes if you and again this is something that\h\h

667
01:08:24,480 --> 01:08:28,980
Jacques taught me and I should have known this\h
being a scientist for as many supposedly years\h\h

668
01:08:28,980 --> 01:08:36,600
as I was you know he said look Gary if if you make\h
a conclusion of about what you think this is and\h\h

669
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:43,200
I can prove you wrong you've you're at the very\h
least you're rep your your reputation is tarnished\h\h

670
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:48,600
especially if you come out with a big claim and\h
he did that on the very first day that I met him\h\h

671
01:08:49,380 --> 01:08:56,580
I had an idea about what it is uh and I you\h
know I thought I'm so smart and I said it and\h\h

672
01:08:56,580 --> 01:09:03,360
he just like went and I realized okay I need\h
to stick around this guy he can teach me stuff\h\h

673
01:09:04,140 --> 01:09:12,780
right and so that I think is the kind of positive\h
attitude that we need to take uh with the the data\h\h

674
01:09:12,780 --> 01:09:19,080
is let's stay away from a firm conclusion uh and\h
even if we need to go well past the point where\h\h

675
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:24,780
we know what the conclusion should be because if\h
you again if you if you start talking about the\h\h

676
01:09:24,780 --> 01:09:30,900
next step and that should be had at some point\h
and not in this discussion today the next step\h\h

677
01:09:30,900 --> 01:09:37,560
is okay well let's say let's speculate that\h
there is something here I mean there's a huge\h\h

678
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:42,120
set of conversations you could have about what\h
is the intent of what it is that's here and I\h\h

679
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:46,020
don't even get into it because you can go down\h
a thousand different rabbit holes and just go\h\h

680
01:09:46,020 --> 01:09:51,900
if anybody wants to know what the intent is go\h
look at Reddit uh there's lots of ideas there\h\h

681
01:09:53,160 --> 01:10:04,800
um but so but that question is right behind the\h
conclusion that will be at some point made if it's\h\h

682
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:12,780
not made or let's put it this differently so again\h
one of my mentors uh when I was a grad student uh\h\h

683
01:10:12,780 --> 01:10:20,400
lee lee herzenberg Len and Lee herzenberg They uh\h
made they actually created the monoclonal antibody\h\h

684
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:27,540
technology uh for humanized antibodies billions of\h
dollars um brought in you know and to Stanford got\h\h

685
01:10:27,540 --> 01:10:33,480
extraordinary amounts and so I was talking with\h
Lee the wife one day and she said I said I wanted\h\h

686
01:10:33,480 --> 01:10:38,040
to do this this is Gary no that's not the way to\h
do this you're asking a question whose answer is\h\h

687
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:43,920
yes or no that's the Las Vegas question if the\h
answer is yes you're happy if the answer is no\h\h

688
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:48,480
you wasted whatever amount of time or resources\h
went into that sometimes you just want to flip\h\h

689
01:10:48,480 --> 01:10:53,700
the answer the question around in a way and ask\h
the Zen question where the answer is interesting\h\h

690
01:10:53,700 --> 01:11:02,340
no matter what and so luckily we're actually\h
at the point of the Zen question are we alone\h\h

691
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:09,600
is this evidence of extraterrestrial activity\h
or something that's maybe already been here\h\h

692
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:13,800
or was here forever and before us which opens\h
the question of do we really own this planet\h\h

693
01:11:15,300 --> 01:11:23,640
um so is it something yes that's a game\h
changer at many levels that you know of society\h\h

694
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:29,160
the other answer is just as interesting it might\h
be depressing the other answer is we are alone\h\h

695
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:35,820
at least here and nothing has has been here that's\h
interesting but it still begs the question what is\h\h

696
01:11:35,820 --> 01:11:41,400
it that everybody's seeing yeah right so you still\h
have to explain it so no matter what the answer is\h\h

697
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:46,140
here the answer is interesting so you know one of\h
the things that I try to teach my students in my\h\h

698
01:11:46,140 --> 01:11:52,500
lab is to always ask the Zen question because when\h
every time you do an experiment it's another it's\h\h

699
01:11:52,500 --> 01:11:59,160
another figure in the paper you never go down\h
a blind alley and so and and that's the other\h\h

700
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:04,140
reason why you know I mean not all questions can\h
be that way but the other reason why for instance\h\h

701
01:12:04,140 --> 01:12:08,580
I always got involved with instrumentation and\h
the creation of new instruments that I see as\h\h

702
01:12:08,580 --> 01:12:14,040
inevitable because instruments are just technical\h
capabilities you can always make it happen it just\h\h

703
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:19,080
depends on how hard you Hammer at it but if\h
you ask the question you know will this drug\h\h

704
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:24,420
cure cancer and then you might make a mistake\h
and many pharmaceutical companies make that\h\h

705
01:12:24,420 --> 01:12:31,260
mistake literally every year and they have because\h
it's the only way to do it right now so um I so I\h\h

706
01:12:31,260 --> 01:12:38,340
think that we're at that kind of inflection point\h
in our thinking about this we have the tools as\h\h

707
01:12:38,340 --> 01:12:43,980
we were talking about earlier to answer some of\h
these questions or the building of some of the\h\h

708
01:12:43,980 --> 01:12:49,800
tools that are required to be used are within our\h
grasp sometimes it's not even building the tools\h\h

709
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:53,280
sometimes it's just actually putting together the\h
pieces that already exist and are being used for\h\h

710
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:59,640
other things and so we have all of that so as\h
long as we're not hurting anybody and as long\h\h

711
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:04,560
as we're not diverting resources the argument\h
of diversion of resources is frankly a a a

712
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:10,980
white elephant I don't know what the\h
white charm is but it's it's a diversion\h\h

713
01:13:12,060 --> 01:13:16,500
um and so we have it and if people\h
are willing to do it and the answers\h\h

714
01:13:16,500 --> 01:13:22,680
are interesting no matter what and why\h
do we do it and frankly the the the the\h\h

715
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:28,980
yes answer to it is actually a Las Vegas\h
outcome no you know and so I I you know\h\h

716
01:13:29,580 --> 01:13:36,120
I'm interested in doing it now I interestingly\h
I got asked the question the other day um do I\h\h

717
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:42,720
think that disclosure or sufficient knowledge\h
to make a conclusion will come in my lifetime\h\h

718
01:13:44,220 --> 01:13:51,660
my answer was I don't care my answer was we need\h
to create the foundation and the Bedrock for the\h\h

719
01:13:51,660 --> 01:13:57,540
other so the answer will come even if we know that\h
there is something else here it clearly hasn't\h\h

720
01:13:57,540 --> 01:14:03,540
shown up and landed on the White House lawn and\h
it had plenty it's had plenty of opportunity to do\h\h

721
01:14:03,540 --> 01:14:09,300
so and to the extent that anything of what it is\h
that we observe is real is them just saying well\h\h

722
01:14:09,300 --> 01:14:17,640
we're here uh you know it's it's probably not\h
going to change just because Congress says you\h\h

723
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:22,920
know they're here they're not going to suddenly\h
go voila and show up at family dinner or you know\h\h

724
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:26,460
we're going to still have a lot of unanswered\h
questions we're going to have to stand up you\h\h

725
01:14:26,460 --> 01:14:32,580
know the capability to understand this societally\h
yeah uh across different spectrums and once we do\h\h

726
01:14:32,580 --> 01:14:37,440
that you know I think we'll probably move a little\h
bit away from the technology conversation perhaps\h\h

727
01:14:37,440 --> 01:14:42,660
and be able to start integrating it into what I'll\h
Loosely call the humanities or you know uh there's\h\h

728
01:14:42,660 --> 01:14:47,280
you know how are we going to represent ourselves\h
how are we going to interact how are we even gonna\h\h

729
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:52,200
how is that Gonna Change how we interact with each\h
other and how we you know think about our place in\h\h

730
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:56,700
the universe I mean these are all questions that\h
are rhetorical to me but we need to actually start\h\h

731
01:14:56,700 --> 01:15:01,440
thinking about them right they've been somewhat\h
religious questions for some period of time but\h\h

732
01:15:01,440 --> 01:15:07,080
the rubber is starting to heat to hit the road\h
in some sense do you feel that way well I mean\h\h

733
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:13,500
I I yes I think the rubber is hitting the road I\h
mean it's it's a it's a matter of you know I think\h\h

734
01:15:13,500 --> 01:15:19,980
a change in Consciousness or a change in observing\h
what it is that's around us when you observe what\h\h

735
01:15:19,980 --> 01:15:25,020
was around you did you feel any type of change in\h
your or at least how you interacted with the world\h\h

736
01:15:25,020 --> 01:15:32,160
you mean when I observed the things in my bedroom\h
or over my head I mean it was always there in the\h\h

737
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:37,080
back of my mind and maybe it was the reason why\h
I was interested in science fiction and I and I\h\h

738
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:41,280
when I would look at the sky I almost kind of\h
always knew I said well I know they're there\h\h

739
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:49,680
but I didn't explicitly set out to study it\h
because I was so busy on my personal path\h\h

740
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:55,320
of you know doing my science getting assistant\h
professorship getting grants yeah you know why\h\h

741
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:59,460
why is that right I mean that's what everyone\h
does and but you I mean no kidding had a very\h\h

742
01:15:59,460 --> 01:16:04,140
personal experience and even the experiences I\h
had it really took a while for me to actually\h\h

743
01:16:04,140 --> 01:16:09,420
move forward and try to do something about it in\h
some sense do you think that's a normal reaction\h\h

744
01:16:09,420 --> 01:16:14,640
to this or do you think that's something that is\h
in our culture that you know steers us away from\h\h

745
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:21,360
that well I think I mean for instance if why is\h
not everybody interested in what I think is one of\h\h

746
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:24,780
the most interesting things ever and you have this\h
conversation with me because it doesn't put the\h\h

747
01:16:24,780 --> 01:16:29,100
bread on their table it doesn't change their lives\h
and if it does and frankly I think that with what\h\h

748
01:16:29,100 --> 01:16:33,960
would happen there was some sort of disclosure\h
of something people would be you know would be in\h\h

749
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:38,100
the news for a few months and then we go back to\h
the business of bashing each other over the heads\h\h

750
01:16:38,100 --> 01:16:43,680
with whatever is closest um you know I don't think\h
it's gonna it's going to create a Kumbaya moment\h\h

751
01:16:44,340 --> 01:16:52,440
personally you know somebody else can say\h
otherwise but it will change the discussion about\h\h

752
01:16:52,440 --> 01:17:00,600
well why are we spending so much money on military\h
hardware right if because we're all worried about\h\h

753
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:07,560
basically in the implosion of the planet\h
you know at least ecologically and otherwise\h\h

754
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:14,880
um you look at whatever this might be and you\h
realize it made it past the inflection point\h\h

755
01:17:15,780 --> 01:17:23,400
it is proof that you can make it yeah past\h
that inflection point and so that might change\h\h

756
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:28,020
thinking a little bit I mean I'm not going to\h
get even into what the religious implications\h\h

757
01:17:28,020 --> 01:17:33,660
are you know probably the first thing that some\h
religions will say is well who is their God do\h\h

758
01:17:33,660 --> 01:17:38,220
they have the same God interestingly the Catholic\h
church has actually already come out and say we're\h\h

759
01:17:38,220 --> 01:17:45,060
perfectly fine with uh aliens and maybe they have\h
their own and actually the the um some of the\h\h

760
01:17:45,060 --> 01:17:50,340
Vatican uh intellectuals have said well maybe they\h
have their own personal Jesus isn't that a song\h\h

761
01:17:51,420 --> 01:17:59,940
um you know so uh I mean yeah that's interesting\h
yeah right so for instance with the Vatican\h\h

762
01:17:59,940 --> 01:18:05,160
there are they've already publicly said we're\h
perfectly fine if there are aliens it doesn't\h\h

763
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:10,440
mean that they don't have souls so you know\h
one of the major religions on the planet has\h\h

764
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:17,280
been you know very forward about this one of\h
the other major religions um in the Muslims\h\h

765
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:23,280
in the Quran the Quran explicitly talks about\h
the Jinn and these uh things that are between\h\h

766
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:29,160
the angels and humans that actually live with us\h
and explicitly and it's interesting so for people\h\h

767
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:36,000
out there who have friends of Muslim faith ask\h
them about the Gin And even scientists friends\h\h

768
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:42,180
of mine uh I talk about oh yeah we all believe\h
in the gin oh really yeah no I mean it's it's\h\h

769
01:18:42,180 --> 01:18:46,740
fascinating you know and then you know you don't\h
have to go far over into Buddhism and all the rest\h\h

770
01:18:46,740 --> 01:18:51,960
they already explicitly believe in this kind of\h
stuff and the and um many of the Indian religions\h\h

771
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:58,800
are perfectly fine with all of these things that\h
are are might or might not be here so you know as\h\h

772
01:19:00,420 --> 01:19:07,380
but look at it from the point of view of let's\h
say a relatively primitive human tribe or\h\h

773
01:19:07,380 --> 01:19:12,600
whatever seeing these things of course they're\h
going to ascribe supernatural abilities to them\h\h

774
01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:17,820
um and so maybe again the things that\h
we have peopled our religions with\h\h

775
01:19:18,420 --> 01:19:26,340
uh in the form of spirits or gods or what have you\h
are really just these things showing themselves\h\h

776
01:19:26,340 --> 01:19:30,840
as they appear to be now you know and that's\h
actually there's an interesting woman I think\h\h

777
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:37,440
you probably know are Diana pasulka and uh you\h
know her book American Cosmic explicitly goes\h\h

778
01:19:37,440 --> 01:19:44,640
into this about how her let's say conversion into\h
being interested in this was her looking at the\h\h

779
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:50,340
um what she called the ecstasies of the Saints\h
so she was studying the ecstasies of the Saints\h\h

780
01:19:50,340 --> 01:19:57,300
meaning the times in which they became enraptured\h
by some citing or observation that they had where\h\h

781
01:19:57,300 --> 01:20:02,280
they would be literally in almost like a trance\h
and as she would and she literally she had access\h\h

782
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:07,500
to the Vatican Library which not many people get\h
asked to go down into the into the catacombs of\h\h

783
01:20:07,500 --> 01:20:13,140
the library and she said one of the things that\h
really interested me was that these these the\h\h

784
01:20:13,140 --> 01:20:20,100
the showings of the Angels or the showings of God\h
always showed up as orbs of light or things like\h\h

785
01:20:20,100 --> 01:20:28,860
that and she began to realize well this is today\h
we see this as we see these as we call them UFOs\h\h

786
01:20:30,480 --> 01:20:33,600
um and it was something of course that\h
Jacques valet had noted as well so that\h\h

787
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:38,400
she became aware of Jacqueline's work etc but\h
I think what's nice about what Diana does is\h\h

788
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:47,820
she writes about it from a uh a very academic\h
non-judgmental view of look here's the data\h\h

789
01:20:49,440 --> 01:20:54,720
um now religions have made conclusions about\h
the data and have become set in their ways\h\h

790
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:59,760
and that is frankly what sets up this potential\h
conflict amongst the religions because they've all\h\h

791
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:05,340
come to a conclusion they're trying to prove the\h
other one wrong and that's you know something we\h\h

792
01:21:05,340 --> 01:21:10,140
want to avoid for the UAP topic right now right\h
obviously yeah right let me let's let's switch\h\h

793
01:21:10,140 --> 01:21:15,660
gears a little bit I wanted to ask you um if you\h
had any thoughts you'd like to share about the\h\h

794
01:21:15,660 --> 01:21:23,100
efforts that NASA's undertaken with their UAP\h
investigation I believe it is study team yeah\h\h

795
01:21:23,100 --> 01:21:33,120
UAP ist so um you know I've been blowing hot and\h
cold about it uh first you know excited because\h\h

796
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:38,640
they actually have a team right and they've\h
explicitly said that this is something they\h\h

797
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:44,160
should be interested in probably Bill Nelson has\h
been more open about the uh the idea but he's been\h\h

798
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:50,640
supported by uh CIA and intelligence heads from\h
prior years saying that look there's something\h\h

799
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:57,360
here and and this we can't ignore it um then I\h
was depressed uh that the amount of money that\h\h

800
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:02,460
went into it was only a hundred thousand dollars\h
um but then I got excited again because somebody\h\h

801
01:22:02,460 --> 01:22:07,800
said well no this is just this is not to come to\h
a conclusion this is just to ask whether there's\h\h

802
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:16,980
a there there I got depressed when some of the\h
people on the team came out even before they had\h\h

803
01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:25,020
joined the the thing had been instantiated and\h
publicly said well it's not uaps it's not aliens\h\h

804
01:22:25,020 --> 01:22:30,540
so I'm just going to go on this and there and\h
so I I was wondering okay well why are they\h\h

805
01:22:30,540 --> 01:22:35,580
saying that what are are they psychologically\h
protecting themselves against the attack that\h\h

806
01:22:35,580 --> 01:22:42,060
they will get from their colleagues because they\h
even considered being on a committee like this so\h\h

807
01:22:42,060 --> 01:22:46,920
they're basically armoring themselves against what\h
they know to be the attacks that are coming and\h\h

808
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:52,020
I've publicly said these people frankly unless\h
they recant that view of things should be just\h\h

809
01:22:52,020 --> 01:22:59,220
taken off the committee I mean I I wouldn't want\h
a reviewer who's before they've seen my paper this\h\h

810
01:22:59,220 --> 01:23:03,420
you know be a person that says well I don't even\h
believe what he's what he's doing why do you think\h\h

811
01:23:03,420 --> 01:23:08,760
a scientist I mean and they know better right\h
because they're not scientists you don't think\h\h

812
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:13,440
no no they're breaking the rules I mean they're\h
breaking the principle that got them their PHD\h\h

813
01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:19,080
I mean that's just I'm sorry if I'm hurting\h
somebody's feelings but you know that's the\h\h

814
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:24,660
way it is and you know that's what has propelled\h
me you kind of were asking this before what got\h\h

815
01:23:24,660 --> 01:23:31,140
you going it's when somebody told me I was wrong\h
when I know I'm right yeah oh I know the feeling\h\h

816
01:23:32,940 --> 01:23:39,120
what about dod's effort within the all domain\h
anomaly resolution office have you had any insight\h\h

817
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:45,360
into the efforts that they're going on I mean I\h
I mean frankly it's a bit of a cipher right now\h\h

818
01:23:45,360 --> 01:23:55,920
I mean you know I'm I'm hopeful uh that uh Sean\h
uh Kirkpatrick will be uh an honest broker in\h\h

819
01:23:55,920 --> 01:24:02,160
all of this uh I just don't know enough about\h
him and I of the people who I spoken with who\h\h

820
01:24:02,160 --> 01:24:09,120
do know about him they also are a little bit\h
ambivalent uh as to what his role is or going\h\h

821
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:13,920
to be and is he going to color the outcomes\h
in any interesting way or an uninteresting\h\h

822
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:21,540
way or a biased way I don't know we'll see um\h
you know one of the things that I know about\h\h

823
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:27,660
um let's say academic Administration or decisions\h
that are made in corporations is it's always\h\h

824
01:24:27,660 --> 01:24:36,780
better to prevent the decision from being made\h
then try to reverse the decision so um frankly\h\h

825
01:24:36,780 --> 01:24:42,420
one of the things that I think the public at\h
large should be doing is is gaming the refs\h\h

826
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:49,200
you know we need to basically be out there ahead\h
of time saying we're watching you uh and we're\h\h

827
01:24:49,200 --> 01:24:53,160
ready for what's coming it kind of circles back a\h
little bit to the discussion we were having about\h\h

828
01:24:53,160 --> 01:25:00,480
about Barnes and the other uh the you know the\h
Wall Street Journal article you know I mean I on\h\h

829
01:25:00,480 --> 01:25:08,520
Twitter I basically slammed the um Julian Barnes\h
for what he had written uh as being clearly biased\h\h

830
01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:13,200
and uh and then I also I can't remember the second\h
one the only person in the world that seemed to\h\h

831
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:20,460
know what's in that report uh and yeah and yet\h
yeah he's wrong but um and then somebody else\h\h

832
01:25:20,460 --> 01:25:26,340
uh and then I was attacked by other people from\h
military.com saying how dare you do this I said\h\h

833
01:25:26,340 --> 01:25:33,540
I'm not I this is Twitter how dare I do anything\h
I mean I'm just chilling is like a private it's\h\h

834
01:25:33,540 --> 01:25:37,680
a private organization I know by the military a\h
lot of people don't realize that I know and so\h\h

835
01:25:38,220 --> 01:25:46,320
um you know I I think that again I I guess I've\h
gathered enough of a reputation that when I said\h\h

836
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:51,240
something like that it brought in a slew of other\h
people he never answered and I don't think he\h\h

837
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:57,000
ever will because if I were him I'd be embarrassed\h
that's what you have to do you have to shame these\h\h

838
01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:02,580
people I'm sorry to say because they've been using\h
shame against people who had honest experiences\h\h

839
01:26:02,580 --> 01:26:07,440
and telling them that it didn't happen I mean\h
the psychological burden on people like that is\h\h

840
01:26:07,440 --> 01:26:12,060
tremendous that you know that you saw something\h
and you didn't and they tell you that you didn't\h\h

841
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:18,240
um and so I mean there's a whole problem set of\h
problems there that need to be dealt with you know\h\h

842
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:24,420
we need support groups and to be run by not by\h
just your average therapist you need somebody with\h\h

843
01:26:24,420 --> 01:26:28,860
psychological and Psychiatry training to run these\h
things and luckily those things are now being set\h\h

844
01:26:28,860 --> 01:26:38,220
up uh to to help people process it you know either\h
they saw something anomalous or they have a mental\h\h

845
01:26:38,220 --> 01:26:44,880
health problem so we shouldn't ignore them but\h
these people are otherwise sane if by all measures\h\h

846
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:49,380
so we have to have a way of dealing with it and we\h
can't just keep telling people that they're wrong\h\h

847
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:56,220
um and so that that to me is what bothers me\h
about the let's say the military stance on this\h\h

848
01:26:56,220 --> 01:27:01,080
is that if there's something so dangerous\h
there that we shouldn't know about it\h\h

849
01:27:01,860 --> 01:27:08,220
then maybe you sh maybe the danger is not that\h
we don't know about it the danger is that you're\h\h

850
01:27:08,220 --> 01:27:13,380
actually telling people that they're wrong\h
what's more damaging to society telling people\h\h

851
01:27:13,380 --> 01:27:20,220
that they've seen something otherwise productive\h
members of society and making them you know uh\h\h

852
01:27:20,220 --> 01:27:26,280
unsure about it or hiding some Grand secret\h
so the open question is if there is a secret\h\h

853
01:27:27,300 --> 01:27:34,260
is it because the people who have the secret to\h
using it or because there truly is a reason we\h\h

854
01:27:34,260 --> 01:27:39,540
don't want anybody to know about it I mean I would\h
be just as fine if somebody came out and said\h\h

855
01:27:40,260 --> 01:27:48,360
they're here the truth of it is so bad we just\h
can't talk about it of course they're not going\h\h

856
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:52,440
to do that because then of course that'll open\h
lots of other things but but I mean that to me\h\h

857
01:27:52,440 --> 01:28:00,120
would be like okay I kind of trust you it's a\h
it's a good first step it's a good first step

858
01:28:02,460 --> 01:28:11,580
Gary 62. 62. um you're in a same-sex marriage\h
do you think that you know your experiences as\h\h

859
01:28:11,580 --> 01:28:17,100
a young adult as someone part of that Community\h
being told that you were constantly wrong kind\h\h

860
01:28:17,100 --> 01:28:24,480
of helped shape absolutely on this topic yeah\h
I mean uh yes is the short answer I've often\h\h

861
01:28:24,480 --> 01:28:31,680
looked back and said to myself or I mean so\h
for instance there was a time when I was in\h\h

862
01:28:31,680 --> 01:28:40,020
I was assistant professor at Stanford and I\h
wanted to uh bring my then boyfriend partner\h\h

863
01:28:40,020 --> 01:28:49,020
to a faculty Retreat the chairman of the\h
department called me in and said well you\h\h

864
01:28:49,020 --> 01:28:55,380
can't do that some of the other faculty are um\h
are bothered by it and and shouldn't do that\h\h

865
01:28:56,880 --> 01:29:01,500
and my response my honest response\h
to him was what century are you from\h\h

866
01:29:03,180 --> 01:29:08,580
um and I just said that that's not going to\h
happen I immediately wrote a letter to the Deans\h\h

867
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:16,920
and one year later the man was he took early\h
retirement uh and it's just like I don't know\h\h

868
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:22,860
maybe it's just but I've always used that kind\h
of determination when I know that I'm right and\h\h

869
01:29:22,860 --> 01:29:30,360
I'm not hurting anybody and so that same energy\h
kind of propels me here it's like you know look\h\h

870
01:29:31,620 --> 01:29:37,080
I don't know what it is but I know there's\h
something or it needs to be explained I mean\h\h

871
01:29:37,080 --> 01:29:40,560
John Mack went through this yeah as\h
well you know I know it's something\h\h

872
01:29:41,280 --> 01:29:47,100
don't need you to tell me what to do I don't\h
need you to shame me into doing something\h\h

873
01:29:47,100 --> 01:29:51,360
and that's what this guy was trying to do he\h
was trying to shame me I'm like I just I just\h\h

874
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:57,960
couldn't get it it was nothing wrong with you\h
this was 1994 Stanford I mean what's going on\h\h

875
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:04,920
um and actually they tried some of them tried to\h
use it against me in my tenure uh and so uh they\h\h

876
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:12,120
were threatened with a lawsuit and I won very\h
good well thanks for standing up for me but I\h\h

877
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:16,680
mean I think that that's you know that's the\h
kind of energy that other people need to use\h\h

878
01:30:17,940 --> 01:30:23,280
um you know it's it's you realize that again\h
I don't need to get a big psychology thing\h\h

879
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:27,300
that shame is used by Society to\h
control you it's a Control Function\h\h

880
01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:34,440
um and it's a great way Church uses it religions\h
use it you should be ashamed to do this one of\h\h

881
01:30:34,440 --> 01:30:37,980
the first things you hear when you're growing up\h
you should be ashamed through that it's useful\h\h

882
01:30:37,980 --> 01:30:45,360
in certain circumstances but when it becomes a\h
societal control uh problem then that's when I\h\h

883
01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:50,400
think people need to either get together and say\h
no I'm not going to listen to this anymore and\h\h

884
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:55,020
then reverse the shame it's like you should be\h
ashamed of trying to do this not being a better\h\h

885
01:30:55,020 --> 01:30:58,380
scientist but being a better scientist and you\h
should be ashamed for not following the rules\h\h

886
01:30:58,380 --> 01:31:05,940
that you signed up for when you got your PhD\h
yeah um and so my first argument with a major\h\h

887
01:31:05,940 --> 01:31:11,460
scientist was exactly that and he backed down\h
I don't think he agreed with me but he he real\h\h

888
01:31:11,460 --> 01:31:16,500
that's what I always liked about frankly science\h
versus history I'm not saying anything wrong with\h\h

889
01:31:16,500 --> 01:31:22,500
history or whatever the social sciences is I\h
I noticed in college that the people who did\h\h

890
01:31:23,220 --> 01:31:31,560
well in those areas were the ones whose opinions\h
were strangely in sync with the professors um\h\h

891
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:36,540
whereas if I disagreed in science with something\h
I'd go to the Blackboard and prove it and so\h\h

892
01:31:36,540 --> 01:31:43,320
that's where I want this discussion to be I want\h
the discussion to be provable on the Blackboard uh\h\h

893
01:31:43,320 --> 01:31:51,600
so I can go done that's it uh and so I'm not there\h
yet I don't have that but I know it's within reach\h\h

894
01:31:52,740 --> 01:31:57,900
awesome what about just for the regular person\h
that wants to be involved with this you know he\h\h

895
01:31:57,900 --> 01:32:02,520
talked about how they could potentially you know\h
communicate with their representatives that this\h\h

896
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:06,780
is something they support but how do you see just\h
the regular person being part of this conversation\h\h

897
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:12,540
well first if they could be if they could be\h
well I you know I think there needs to be a\h\h

898
01:32:12,540 --> 01:32:18,660
little bit of self-organization but at one level\h
you you can't expect everything to be Grassroots\h\h

899
01:32:18,660 --> 01:32:22,800
I mean Grassroots has been done through\h
mufon and others and they're that's great\h\h

900
01:32:23,700 --> 01:32:29,280
um but they don't necessarily adhere to some\h
of the scientific principles and don't get me\h\h

901
01:32:29,280 --> 01:32:35,040
mad at me people that move on but you know\h
there's there are other kinds of criteria\h\h

902
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:42,240
um so one of the things again the creation\h
of some sort of organization that I'm I'm\h\h

903
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:48,540
trying to do uh that then explicitly\h
funds this within the academic realm\h\h

904
01:32:48,540 --> 01:32:56,760
I mean basically I want to set up sleeper cells\h
inside of academics that you know people I mean\h\h

905
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:03,240
universities will accept money you know I mean\h
I'm sorry that's just you know it's it's it's\h\h

906
01:33:03,240 --> 01:33:10,380
what drives you know a lot of that so if somebody\h
showed up with 10 million dollars uh and said I\h\h

907
01:33:10,380 --> 01:33:15,540
want us or or a larger amount so I want to set\h
up a department of this or I want to set up a\h\h

908
01:33:15,540 --> 01:33:21,120
program for this and I'll give you a hundred\h
million dollars oh you bad that there'll be\h\h

909
01:33:21,120 --> 01:33:25,620
any of a number of places that would step forward\h
do you hear that who wants to fund the first UAP\h\h

910
01:33:25,620 --> 01:33:32,880
Research Center major institution yeah so um you\h
know and then that's what energizes people yeah\h\h

911
01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:39,660
I mean the state of New Jersey surprisingly out\h
of the blue last summer I think it was came out\h\h

912
01:33:39,660 --> 01:33:46,740
and said we have a research Fellowship that we're\h
going to give for UAP studies amazing and that's\h\h

913
01:33:46,740 --> 01:33:51,000
where I think a lot of the the the progress will\h
be made in the areas with the younger generation\h\h

914
01:33:51,900 --> 01:33:57,060
um I've been with the the American Ninja\h
Aeronautics uh Aeronautics astronautics they had\h\h

915
01:33:57,060 --> 01:34:05,160
double a um one of our uh subcommittee leads is\h
a professor at the University of Illinois and the\h\h

916
01:34:05,160 --> 01:34:09,720
interest not only from the students but the other\h
faculty now that he's been engaging on this topic\h\h

917
01:34:10,260 --> 01:34:15,420
um vocally he'll say um they're all signing\h
up you know I mean I keep seeing Illinois\h\h

918
01:34:15,420 --> 01:34:20,880
email addresses coming into our recruitment uh\h
catcher there so it's I think it really is just\h\h

919
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:23,820
about getting that seat in and letting\h
people know that it's okay to actually\h\h

920
01:34:24,900 --> 01:34:32,820
to do this are you around with UAP tomorrow\h
night I'm doing a zoom class for somebody in\h\h

921
01:34:32,820 --> 01:34:39,240
anthropology uh in the Midwest and for their\h
students you know I just spent an hour or\h\h

922
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:43,740
two talking through the students to all of these\h
ideas and they've actually they've actually been\h\h

923
01:34:43,740 --> 01:34:51,120
studying the gimbal event the other events uh the\h
Professor there has and now they want somebody to\h\h

924
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:57,480
come in and answer some of the questions that's\h
pretty cool so you know I mean uh when we set up\h\h

925
01:34:57,480 --> 01:35:03,360
this organization that I want to set up I'm going\h
to have a conference at Stanford and I'll invite\h\h

926
01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:07,800
the necessary people and to the extent that I'm\h
allowed Stanford's very careful with its name\h\h

927
01:35:08,760 --> 01:35:13,380
um the thing will be done at Stanford it\h
won't necessarily Stanford never approves\h\h

928
01:35:14,100 --> 01:35:20,640
a Conference held on its grounds necessarily um\h
but I will do it and I will bring them to the\h\h

929
01:35:20,640 --> 01:35:28,620
to a place where at least it will add a little bit\h
more legitimacy to the matter when can we see that\h\h

930
01:35:28,620 --> 01:35:34,500
I'm we're actually we're trying to get it set up\h
for this summer we'll see this summer we'll see\h\h

931
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:43,920
very cool but the important part is you can bet\h
that that audience Hall will be full to capacity\h\h

932
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:49,560
yeah I'm going to have it in the engineering quad\h
uh I'm going to bring in Engineers I'm gonna it\h\h

933
01:35:49,560 --> 01:35:57,360
won't be it won't be like a bunch of people that\h
have you know UFO conference and That's What I\h\h

934
01:35:57,360 --> 01:36:01,980
Call Insider inside the industry you know it's\h
one thing to take people that have a very strong\h\h

935
01:36:01,980 --> 01:36:08,220
opinion on UAP and bring them into a agnostic\h
Community to convince them of one thing and it's\h\h

936
01:36:08,220 --> 01:36:14,400
a little different to convince someone that is\h
inside there inside the mainstream academic area\h\h

937
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:19,860
and say hey just look at the data you know one and\h
then let them do that that communication yeah I\h\h

938
01:36:19,860 --> 01:36:27,000
think really what you're saying there is you don't\h
want to proselytize you want to come in with uh\h\h

939
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:34,020
basically a discussion and talk about things that\h
are sufficiently interested that interesting that\h\h

940
01:36:34,020 --> 01:36:39,180
anybody could have a discussion about I mean\h
you almost want it to be sort of a kitchen\h\h

941
01:36:39,180 --> 01:36:48,360
table kind of discussion but you know we want to\h
bring in for such a conference uh philosophers a\h\h

942
01:36:48,360 --> 01:36:53,460
few couple of religion people but I I wanted\h
to personally I wanted to be more Tech heavy\h\h

943
01:36:54,660 --> 01:36:59,280
um because I want people to see the opportunities\h
I mean there's you're not going to have one\h\h

944
01:36:59,280 --> 01:37:04,620
conference like this you can have multiple\h
ones but having them at a unit on a University\h\h

945
01:37:04,620 --> 01:37:11,100
campus will be fantastic avilo ran such a thing at\h
Harvard yeah really probably the first of its kind\h\h

946
01:37:12,540 --> 01:37:19,260
um so this is just the next step uh and so you\h
know I think it is again the giving and creating\h\h

947
01:37:19,260 --> 01:37:26,580
a permission structure uh where and so I think\h
the idea is that you know uh just like the AIA\h\h

948
01:37:26,580 --> 01:37:32,100
organization that you're setting up other outside\h
organizations can be the catalyst for creating\h\h

949
01:37:32,100 --> 01:37:39,240
many mores you know the Von Neumann probe approach\h
uh to enabling other people to to get involved\h\h

950
01:37:39,240 --> 01:37:44,580
because it won't even I mean by doing that it\h
won't even necessarily be me as I said before that\h\h

951
01:37:44,580 --> 01:37:51,060
ends up with the glory it always what you find on\h
in science you know the people who win the Nobel\h\h

952
01:37:51,060 --> 01:37:56,220
prizes aren't all at Harvard Stanford and MIT\h
they're at these places where you wouldn't expect\h\h

953
01:37:56,220 --> 01:38:02,040
it but they followed their nose with a level of\h
determination that they're like ah and then the\h\h

954
01:38:02,040 --> 01:38:08,520
rest of the community realizes and then they get\h
hired at Stanford and Harvard um you know but they\h\h

955
01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:14,880
they they proved it elsewhere but it's it's it's\h
planting those seeds and doing the basic research\h\h

956
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:22,140
is what creates the discoveries that then somebody\h
realizes can be enabled and translated very cool

957
01:38:24,780 --> 01:38:29,700
switching it up a little bit here would you\h
consider machine learning or the direction is\h\h

958
01:38:29,700 --> 01:38:37,860
going as a potential non-human intelligence I mean\h
well I mean we're talking about the stuff that's\h\h

959
01:38:37,860 --> 01:38:42,600
going on at Google AI and all the others it's just\h
where it's going as well absolutely oh yeah no I\h\h

960
01:38:42,600 --> 01:38:50,340
mean I I mean the I mean just as the example that\h
Google AI bot uh that the engineer came out and\h\h

961
01:38:50,340 --> 01:38:55,140
said was sentient I'm not sure it was sentient\h
but you know I would rather have a conversation\h\h

962
01:38:55,140 --> 01:38:59,880
with it than probably many of the people that I\h
do know because I can talk about anything so and\h\h

963
01:38:59,880 --> 01:39:04,560
that's just the beginning would that speak then\h
to another category yes of intelligence and thus\h\h

964
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:09,960
there being a broader spectrum of intelligence\h
you know out there that you know because right\h\h

965
01:39:09,960 --> 01:39:14,340
now we're our only data point essentially we\h
understand intelligence says this and then you\h\h

966
01:39:14,340 --> 01:39:22,380
know perhaps to a lesser extent in other animals\h
but um if if we have then created something that\h\h

967
01:39:22,380 --> 01:39:27,360
we would classify as an intelligence that isn't\h
us although it might utilize or leverage our\h\h

968
01:39:27,360 --> 01:39:31,200
intelligence some manner we have to assume there's\h
a wider class of intelligence out there right\h\h

969
01:39:31,200 --> 01:39:37,320
would that be fair absolutely you know I mean and\h
even if you step away from all of these Notions\h\h

970
01:39:37,320 --> 01:39:46,020
of faster than light travel and wormholes Etc um\h
it will not be us or our immediate uh children\h\h

971
01:39:46,020 --> 01:39:52,740
or descendants that will be the first that we\h
send to Alpha Centauri even by conventional\h\h

972
01:39:52,740 --> 01:39:59,280
means even by a light sale right or even by a ram\h
ram scoop right approaches to to going at least\h\h

973
01:40:00,180 --> 01:40:06,480
some significant degree of the speed of light\h
it'll be an advanced computer and what better\h\h

974
01:40:06,480 --> 01:40:14,220
Advanced Computer to send than an AI and you'd\h
probably end up sending you know the chat\h\h

975
01:40:14,220 --> 01:40:19,320
bot GPT thing that everybody sees in the news\h
today or some much more advanced version of it\h\h

976
01:40:20,340 --> 01:40:26,160
um and maybe that's what we're seeing today here\h
that's already pre-programmed by somebody else\h\h

977
01:40:26,160 --> 01:40:31,560
that when you get there uh you know you'll just\h
kind of observe and watch and send the data back\h\h

978
01:40:32,280 --> 01:40:39,540
so I'm yes I'm convinced that you know for\h
instance the Copernicus group that I'm a\h\h

979
01:40:39,540 --> 01:40:44,400
part of you can bet that one of the first\h
things that we're going to put if we can\h\h

980
01:40:44,400 --> 01:40:49,320
on and this is just my personal opinion again I\h
don't speak for Copernicus I got to be careful\h\h

981
01:40:50,580 --> 01:40:55,380
um you know if we can we'd put a pretty\h
Advanced Computer on there if anything\h\h

982
01:40:55,380 --> 01:41:01,740
if it ends up being some version of the of the\h
chat bot GPT uh better than you know an iPhone\h\h

983
01:41:03,180 --> 01:41:08,460
um would you consider yourself in some sense\h
maybe like a protege of Jacques or maybe round\h\h

984
01:41:08,460 --> 01:41:13,740
two oh yeah I mean no I well I can't remember\h
the name of the person that he considers himself\h\h

985
01:41:13,740 --> 01:41:18,660
a protege of uh but there was a Andre and\h
I forget his last name I'm sorry Jacques\h\h

986
01:41:19,440 --> 01:41:24,900
um that he considers himself having been\h
taught by this individual I 100 consider him\h\h

987
01:41:24,900 --> 01:41:31,860
a mentor I mean I've had you know four or five\h
mentors in my life uh and all in in academics\h\h

988
01:41:33,000 --> 01:41:39,420
um this guy Ali Saleh when I was at Cornell Lennon\h
Lee herzenberg uh David Baltimore Nobel Prize\h\h

989
01:41:39,420 --> 01:41:46,680
winner at MIT when I worked with him and then a\h
few around Stanford uh but not to the level of\h\h

990
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:51,720
Jacques because they've always been smarter than\h
me or at least knew more than me you know and so\h\h

991
01:41:51,720 --> 01:41:59,700
I think that that's that's part of what I'm hoping\h
to do for the people in the general Community is\h\h

992
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:03,960
you know for better or worse I'm a confident\h
person people have always said Gary you just\h\h

993
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:09,420
seem so confident actually I'm I'm trembling\h
inside most of the time but I think having\h\h

994
01:42:09,420 --> 01:42:13,380
that confidence lets you do things and it\h
opens doors that you didn't know were there\h\h

995
01:42:13,980 --> 01:42:20,880
so if you are telling a good proportion of your\h
population that the stuff you're experiencing is\h\h

996
01:42:20,880 --> 01:42:25,800
wrong you're making them insecure and so they're\h
not going to go forward right they won't open\h\h

997
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:34,740
doors or try to even batter down The Doors so um\h
you know but I think having confidence is twofold\h\h

998
01:42:34,740 --> 01:42:38,880
of means also you have to be confident enough in\h
your in your intellect to know what you don't know\h\h

999
01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:45,960
and to appreciate somebody else who knows more\h
I mean there's a there's a woman genomicist I\h\h

1000
01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:53,220
won't name her name but she's very very famous\h
uh and people say oh yeah you're in the no she's\h\h

1001
01:42:53,220 --> 01:42:59,040
so much smarter than me I love being around\h
her and but we still bounce ideas off each\h\h

1002
01:42:59,040 --> 01:43:06,540
other and so I think being secure about who\h
and what you are and I'm secure that I'm gay\h\h

1003
01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:12,720
um it's like okay now I can do stuff I mean I\h
still go back to that earlier point I remember\h\h

1004
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:18,540
the point in time when I realized I was I sat on\h
the edge of my bed and said oh okay that was it\h\h

1005
01:43:18,540 --> 01:43:25,260
there was no like ah you know and so maybe it just\h
takes that whatever combination of characteristics\h\h

1006
01:43:25,260 --> 01:43:32,280
that I got from my parents and Circumstance Etc\h
um you know not everybody can replicate that\h\h

1007
01:43:32,280 --> 01:43:40,560
but I can help or we I think not just I we can\h
help create a level of security and as we said a\h\h

1008
01:43:40,560 --> 01:43:47,940
permission structure for people so that they they\h
can be sure of themselves and then go forward with\h\h

1009
01:43:47,940 --> 01:43:52,380
asking their own questions I mean to me that's so\h
important I I one of the things I always realized\h\h

1010
01:43:52,380 --> 01:43:57,420
about the work that I do with teaching my graduate\h
students I don't teach classes teach graduate\h\h

1011
01:43:57,420 --> 01:44:05,940
students how to think is I hate wasted opportunity\h
and that really bothers me when that happens and\h\h

1012
01:44:05,940 --> 01:44:14,280
so I look at this whole UAP thing as potentially\h
a wasted opportunity and so it just it just drives\h\h

1013
01:44:14,280 --> 01:44:19,200
me nuts that we're not doing something about it\h
but well frankly we are and so the best thing you\h\h

1014
01:44:19,200 --> 01:44:24,420
knew when you see something that upsets you is\h
you go out and do something about it and I for\h\h

1015
01:44:24,420 --> 01:44:30,660
better or worse I have the ability to do so and so\h
I'm going to do it me too uh someone has to do it\h\h

1016
01:44:31,860 --> 01:44:35,760
um this is what I wanted to do I say like just\h
we can look at a character like it's okay to be\h\h

1017
01:44:35,760 --> 01:44:41,760
interested in UFOs or UAP you have our permissions\h
you know what I mean like it's just honestly like\h\h

1018
01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:46,680
maybe we can just do that to end or something you\h
know what I mean um because it is it is silly you\h\h

1019
01:44:46,680 --> 01:44:51,780
know just be like hey it's okay I'm interested in\h
UAP not a big deal people believe in all kinds of\h\h

1020
01:44:51,780 --> 01:44:59,880
things and so why not I mean they could be doing\h
something you know uh illicit with their lives uh\h\h

1021
01:44:59,880 --> 01:45:06,780
and so why not why not this you know even if it's\h
just a hobby yeah right I mean uh you know hobbies\h\h

1022
01:45:06,780 --> 01:45:13,560
are things that you do that you enjoy and if you\h
enjoy asking the question are there non-human\h\h

1023
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:18,960
intelligences here then that's interesting\h
I mean frankly even without talking about\h\h

1024
01:45:18,960 --> 01:45:23,700
ETS and all the other thing there are non-human\h
intelligences I mean have you ever watched some\h\h

1025
01:45:23,700 --> 01:45:28,440
of the you know some of the animal uh interactions\h
and the things that they do I mean I look at my\h\h

1026
01:45:28,440 --> 01:45:33,060
dogs and I see a Consciousness in front of\h
me they're not at our level but you see some\h\h

1027
01:45:33,060 --> 01:45:38,820
other things where animals solve problems that are\h
almost miraculous and you know that they're on the\h\h

1028
01:45:38,820 --> 01:45:47,580
edge yeah of ability there's just this recent um\h
uh archaeologic find uh homo nobelius or I can't\h\h

1029
01:45:47,580 --> 01:45:53,280
remember I can't remember but it was recent in\h
South Africa of something that lived something\h\h

1030
01:45:53,280 --> 01:45:58,260
like 200 000 years before us and there's evidence\h
not yet conclusive but the evidence is that it was\h\h

1031
01:45:58,260 --> 01:46:04,920
using fire oh wow so another Jesus of another\h
genus of humans 200 000 years I mean we've only\h\h

1032
01:46:04,920 --> 01:46:14,040
been around for about maybe 50 50 000. so somebody\h
else was here maybe maybe and you know uh I mean\h\h

1033
01:46:14,040 --> 01:46:18,780
that tells you something that tells you that tells\h
you actually something quite interesting that\h\h

1034
01:46:18,780 --> 01:46:24,840
intelligence can arise multiple times right it\h
tells you that the opportunity now why they might\h\h

1035
01:46:24,840 --> 01:46:28,740
have died out an open question maybe because\h
we came along and killed them off who knows\h\h

1036
01:46:29,940 --> 01:46:35,460
um when you know that something can happen you\h
know the there's a thing called Bayesian inference\h\h

1037
01:46:35,460 --> 01:46:39,720
you probably know that the the idea of Prior\h
if it can happen once that means it can happen\h\h

1038
01:46:40,560 --> 01:46:46,380
and so therefore it can happen again and you\h
know you I think we haven't really integrated\h\h

1039
01:46:46,380 --> 01:46:50,880
that into our understanding of our Pro our\h
the chances of us being here you know right\h\h

1040
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:55,260
and for me essentially and all that right yeah\h
definitely integrated that I mean I remember\h\h

1041
01:46:56,280 --> 01:47:01,380
um when I was probably I was young it was the\h
first house that we lived in um and there was\h\h

1042
01:47:01,380 --> 01:47:06,360
a Scientific American and for whatever reason I\h
opened the page and it was about about the local\h\h

1043
01:47:06,360 --> 01:47:12,720
universe and it was a they had a picture of the\h
of the cosmos as we understood them at the moment\h\h

1044
01:47:13,620 --> 01:47:18,360
um and I think it was just basically a an\h
edge on view of the of the Milky Way galaxy\h\h

1045
01:47:19,140 --> 01:47:24,120
and I think I was I don't know how eight\h
or nine um I remember looking at it and\h\h

1046
01:47:24,120 --> 01:47:29,640
thinking what kinds of I don't know why\h
I thought this but what kinds of Empires\h\h

1047
01:47:30,240 --> 01:47:36,300
and stories have happened across time across all\h
of that space I mean so I was already imagining\h\h

1048
01:47:37,080 --> 01:47:44,160
things that might live out there um and so\h
if even that sense of wonder and possibility\h\h

1049
01:47:44,160 --> 01:47:51,300
of the how small we are relative to all of that\h
can be imbued into students or others out there\h\h

1050
01:47:52,440 --> 01:47:58,440
that sense of wonder will drive them to help\h
answer the question that we're trying to answer\h\h

1051
01:47:58,440 --> 01:48:06,180
here today is what kind of data do you need to\h
collect to prove or disprove the hypothesis so\h\h

1052
01:48:06,180 --> 01:48:10,200
long as they look at the data they'll always\h
look at the data speaking of looking at data\h\h

1053
01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:15,780
uh I've been speaking with some Pilots recently\h
who have commercial pilots in you know what you\h\h

1054
01:48:15,780 --> 01:48:19,320
would expect to fly across the country in\h
that have been seeing objects just recently\h\h

1055
01:48:19,320 --> 01:48:24,420
just you know as we speak over the past eight to\h
12 months over the continental United States and\h\h

1056
01:48:24,420 --> 01:48:29,220
and western coast have you been tracking that\h
and what are your thoughts I mean I've seen the\h\h

1057
01:48:29,220 --> 01:48:34,560
stories of they see these lights circling and\h
I've seen some of the video uh that the pilots\h\h

1058
01:48:34,560 --> 01:48:40,980
have taken on their uh basically cell phone\h
cameras uh and I mean the long and the short\h\h

1059
01:48:40,980 --> 01:48:46,260
of it is they don't know what they are and these\h
are people who basically fly every day for their\h\h

1060
01:48:46,260 --> 01:48:53,100
whole lot you know for their professional lives\h
and they see something that shouldn't be there so\h\h

1061
01:48:53,100 --> 01:49:00,780
I ask a different I'll actually make a different\h
point Maybe they always have been there but the\h\h

1062
01:49:00,780 --> 01:49:09,960
pilots just didn't notice them because they didn't\h
have let's say the the environment to say I should\h\h

1063
01:49:09,960 --> 01:49:15,900
be paying attention to that right or as we all\h
know maybe they just suppressed it right there's\h\h

1064
01:49:15,900 --> 01:49:21,720
this there's this notion of uh intelligence is\h
sometimes not about putting one and one together\h\h

1065
01:49:22,860 --> 01:49:28,500
intelligence is just realizing that there is a\h
one right that you that you see something that\h\h

1066
01:49:28,500 --> 01:49:33,900
other people don't see anyway that that is those\h
are the innovators those are the people who see\h\h

1067
01:49:33,900 --> 01:49:41,640
something that's there and so maybe there's just a\h
certain kind of brain circuitry that uh by itself\h\h

1068
01:49:41,640 --> 01:49:47,160
recognizes the anomalous as being something you\h
should be paying attention to you know I always\h\h

1069
01:49:47,160 --> 01:49:52,440
use the example not that you couldn't physically\h
see it it's just your internal brains filters\h\h

1070
01:49:52,440 --> 01:49:59,580
saying that's noise that's noise yeah yeah I mean\h
you know um there's a book about you know reality\h\h

1071
01:49:59,580 --> 01:50:05,280
in their reality that our brains are frankly\h
not designed to see reality our brains are\h\h

1072
01:50:05,280 --> 01:50:11,880
only there to filter enough information to keep us\h
surviving and pass our genes on so everything that\h\h

1073
01:50:11,880 --> 01:50:20,460
is extraneous to that essential need just doesn't\h
get into our brains I've heard you use the term\h\h

1074
01:50:20,460 --> 01:50:26,400
like biosphere or dark biosphere is that kind of\h
the same Theory where there's there's potential\h\h

1075
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:31,320
things happening that includes life in some sense\h
that could be happening around us we're just not\h\h

1076
01:50:31,320 --> 01:50:34,920
tuned into we're just not tuned into it or you\h
know I mean I hate to use the term frequency\h\h

1077
01:50:34,920 --> 01:50:44,460
because it has so many negative unfortunately\h
connotations um uh it's uh you know it's\h\h

1078
01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:49,740
it's data off the curve I mean just to\h
go straight to the to the science of it\h\h

1079
01:50:50,700 --> 01:50:57,300
um so in my lab meetings the students will show\h
their data and then they'll they'll be like a\h\h

1080
01:50:57,300 --> 01:51:01,140
curve and everything fits the curve oh isn't that\h
beautiful it's great and there's like a data point\h\h

1081
01:51:01,140 --> 01:51:06,900
off the Curve and I said what happened to that\h
one and they'll go a few and then back in my mind\h\h

1082
01:51:06,900 --> 01:51:11,640
it's it's thinking what did that mean I said go\h
back a few slides I think my students are tired\h\h

1083
01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:15,300
of me when I because they know that when I say go\h
back a few slides it's the beginning of trouble oh\h\h

1084
01:51:15,300 --> 01:51:22,860
boy yeah um but good trouble because it's always\h
the anomaly that is anomalies by definition are\h\h

1085
01:51:22,860 --> 01:51:32,880
Discovery and so here we have anomalies that you\h
know enough people are crying fire that we should\h\h

1086
01:51:32,880 --> 01:51:37,620
maybe be paying attention to it because if we're\h
going to just stay on the curve for the rest of\h\h

1087
01:51:38,460 --> 01:51:44,820
time then we and the anomalies just built up but\h
this is this is what's called the cunan revolution\h\h

1088
01:51:44,820 --> 01:51:50,400
right the structure of scientific revolutions\h
Thomas Kuhn uh wrote this back in I think the\h\h

1089
01:51:50,400 --> 01:51:57,540
50s or so um where science doesn't proceed in this\h
incremental set of understandings science proceeds\h\h

1090
01:51:57,540 --> 01:52:04,260
until it reaches and until it reaches a wall and\h
a wall of anomalies begin to build up because the\h\h

1091
01:52:04,260 --> 01:52:09,720
current understanding doesn't accept that the\h
anomaly exists uh and then there's somebody on\h\h

1092
01:52:09,720 --> 01:52:15,180
this side screaming but it exists it exists and\h
then the evidence been begins to build up and then\h\h

1093
01:52:15,180 --> 01:52:22,260
you have a revolution but the the almost annoying\h
aspect of it is that everybody who was screaming\h\h

1094
01:52:22,260 --> 01:52:27,600
it doesn't exist on the other side tells you oh\h
of course it did we always understood this yeah\h\h

1095
01:52:27,600 --> 01:52:34,140
right I mean that's fine but I think that that's\h
where we're at that moment now uh again where\h\h

1096
01:52:34,140 --> 01:52:39,780
people are beginning to realize okay there's\h
there's something but again it's it's I want\h\h

1097
01:52:39,780 --> 01:52:48,660
to create a science and language structure for\h
people where they can talk about the anomaly in\h\h

1098
01:52:48,660 --> 01:52:56,940
a way that doesn't create ridicule and so\h
you know maybe this organization that I'm\h\h

1099
01:52:56,940 --> 01:53:01,860
setting up will will be will be able to do\h
it the things that you're doing things that\h\h

1100
01:53:01,860 --> 01:53:08,940
we know other people are doing there's like\h
a there's basically a a cottage industry of\h\h

1101
01:53:08,940 --> 01:53:15,000
groups being created by many uh and one or more\h
of them is going to be extremely successful\h\h

1102
01:53:16,260 --> 01:53:22,620
which is exciting it's okay to be interested\h
in UFOs yeah very cool Gary thanks for joining\h\h

1103
01:53:22,620 --> 01:53:29,080
me today so much it was a fun discussion it\h
was awesome more to come cheers yeah [Music]